Improved Precise Shot

DonAdam

Explorer
from the 3.5 PHB thread in General:

Improved Precise Shot: Your attacks ignore the AC bonus granted to targets by anything less than total cover, and the miss chance granted to targets by anything less than total concealment... In addition, when you shoot or throw ranged weapons at a grappling opponent, you automatically strike at the opponent you have chosen.

This feat has got to go.

What were they smoking? As if archers were not good enough already.

Arrow slits have just become useless.

Any feat that removes tactics from the game should not exist.

I could have understood "decreases cover by one step unless they have total cover." That would have made sense.

Note that this also makes blur useless. It used to stop sneak attacks, now it won't.

Ridiculous. Positively ridiculous.
 

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Definitely very powerful, but I'm sure the "within 30 feet" part got left out which makes it a bit more reasonable. We also don't know what the pre-reqs are (other than rangers getting it at 11th level). I'm not panicking on this until I get to read the full text.
 


Olgar Shiverstone said:
Definitely very powerful, but I'm sure the "within 30 feet" part got left out which makes it a bit more reasonable. We also don't know what the pre-reqs are (other than rangers getting it at 11th level). I'm not panicking on this until I get to read the full text.

I agree.

The feat may be overpowered by completely removing cover, but there should be some way for a character in general to reduce the effects of cover.
 

DonAdam said:
Regardless of what the prereqs are, you should never make arrow slits useless.

Agreed in most cases (heck, True Strike already renders arrow slits useless, at least for one shot), but somehow I suspect this isn't the full picture. I hope.
 

It probably requires at least Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and a BAB of +11.

In any case, it's not that bad. Only dedicated archers will probably have this feat, and you should be able to do some powerful things with a bow at high levels if you take the right feats.
 

Far be it from me to defend 3.5e--a revision I think likely to produce a less fun and balanced game on the whole. However, I can't say I see anything wrong with this feat.

My initial thought when I read it was "how ridiculous" but when I thought about it, I realized that it will primarily come up in only a very few situations:

1. Firing past an ally into melee. No more +4 cover bonus and chance of hitting the ally.

2. Firing into a grapple. No more chance to hit your friend. (Ranged sneak attacks will be very deadly in this situation with this feat but it's pretty limited).

3. Firing at archers behind arrow slits.

4. Firing at characters with blur or cloaks of minor displacement active.

5. Firing at targets in melee range while in the area of one of the various fog or mist spells.

Of these, 1 is clearly not particularly powerful. If your ally had a +4 dex bonus or was hasted, he didn't really provide much of a cover bonus anyway (any arrow that missed by the amount of cover hit the cover but if said cover was missed by an amount equal to or less than his dex and dodge bonusses, he got out of the way and it hit the target anyway).

2. Is potentially powerful but is a reasonable thing for a feat to do. Any attempt to exploit the effect (possibly with large groups of grappling zombies supported by rogue or OotBI archers) will run into two problems: 1: the prerequisites for this feat may make it difficult for rogues to attain it. . . and OotBIs don't get as much sneak attack and usually have to be too high level for significant numbers of them to participate in an EL appropriate ambush). 2. All of that sneak attack damage (and all of the archers) become irrelevant the moment someone casts Obscuring Mist or Fog Cloud, etc.

3. Sounds impressive but 7th or 8th level archers could already hit bad guys behind arrow slits 40-50% of the time (at least my cleric archer in RttToEE could at that level). And why shouldn't a high level character be able to spend a feat to be a Robin Hood lookalike. It's not as if the situation comes up very often.

4. Blur was never worth casting anyway and cloaks of minor displacement were primarily anti-sneak attack devices (see previous note about rogues most likely having difficulty achieving this feat if the prereqs are appropriate).

5. If you're going to try firing while in melee your character deserves the sundered bow he's going to get. Or if you're an OotBI, you get to use your class features. And the feat still won't help you if you're not in melee range because you won't be able to see your target.

All told, I think this is a good feat--possibly a little strong but clearly worth taking (unlike Sharpshooting from Sword and Fist which was very marginal). This adds another reason for archers to have more than 4 fighter levels since there are now at least 4 feats an archer would probably want after weapon specialization etc. (Greater Weapon Focus and specialization, Improved Precise Shot, and Manyshot).

DonAdam said:
Note that this also makes blur useless. It used to stop sneak attacks, now it won't.

This feat won't make blur useless; it's impossible to make blur useless because it already is in 3e (it might be worthwhile as a 1st level spell....). If you want to stop sneak attacks, do it for everyone with obscuring mist or fog cloud. It you want to get hit less cast protection from evil or shield of faith. Either way is more effective for the desired result than casting blur.
 

My main problem is that it makes standing behind a twig and standing behind an arrow slit identical.

Reducing cover is fine, but eliminating it altogether just destroys any remote sense of versimilitude. I don't care HOW good you are, it's harder to hit someone through a 1 inch slit than behind a a chair.
 

DonAdam said:
I don't care HOW good you are, it's harder to hit someone through a 1 inch slit than behind a a chair.
Its no different than a high level fighter getting to the point where some ranges of AC will only be missed on a natural 1, when logically the AC's at the high end of the range should be harder to hit.
 
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Its no different than a high level fighter getting to the point where some ranges of AC will only be missed on a natural 1, when logically the AC's at the high end of the range should be harder to hit.

Flawed analogy.

You're looking at it in terms of numbers rather than what the numbers represent.
Let's assume that a fighter will only miss on a natural 1, whether his target is behind an arrow slit or a chair. This is fine, because while one is harder in an abstract sense, they're both so easy for the fighter that there's no way he will fail.

Then, said targets get, say, Shield cast on them. Suddenly, super archer may have a chance of missing the guy behind the arrow slit, but probably not the guy behind the chair. Given what was described last paragraph, that makes total sense.

Imp. Precise shot does away with that. They would be the same difficulty to hit when they both got buffed. That doesn't match the logic above.

In other words, your objection is based on a static arithmetical coincidence due to a particular rules abstraction. My problem is not with the mechanics in themselves, but rather what they say about the way the world works.
 

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