Improved Metamagic and Heighten Spell

[LordAO]

The discussion on the Incantatrix got me thinking.

Improved matamagic lowers the level that a metamagic adds to a spell by 1 (to a minimum of 1), right?

Heighten Spell let's you add levels to a spell to make it a higher level (and all that goes with it, better DCs, etc).

Does that mean that I can heighten, say, a Fireball to 5th level but only spend a 4th level spell slot on it?

 

[Kraedin]

I think so. Actually, I'm pretty sure.

 

[Pax]

No.

Improved Metamagic cannot reduce the cost to less than 1, if the metamagic had a positive cost beforehand.

Heighten Spell has a cost of 1. 1, minus 1, to a minimum of 1, is still ... 1.

Just because you can apply it multiple times (say, twice, toa fireball), doesn't make it a SINGLE metamagic with a cost of +2 levels.

Empower (cost +2), and Improved Metamagic (reduce costs by 1, to minimum of 1), has a +1 cost. So you could double-empower that fireball, and use a 5th level slot, not a 7th level slot.

But Heighten cannot be made cheaper via Improved Metamagic. Improved MEtamagick looks at each seperate instance of each seperate metamagic, and reduces the cost of each of them by 1, to a minimum of 1 each.

So 2 heightens (+1, +1) still add 2 levels to teh base spell, wether you have Improved Metamagic once, ten times, a thousand times, or not at all.

 

[Hypersmurf]

So 2 heightens (+1, +1) still add 2 levels to teh base spell, wether you have Improved Metamagic once, ten times, a thousand times, or not at all.

Gee, Heighten Spell is gonna... kinda suck in 3.5, with non-stackable Metamagic, huh?

-Hyp.

 

[Pax]

I rather expect they will either (a) have to FAQ or Errata Heighten Spell to take that into account, or (b) indicate in Heighten Spell that it is excepted from teh non-stacking rule.

And, BTW, I won't be PLAYING with that non-stacking rule myself, anyway.

 

[Hypersmurf]

From the Main FAQ:

There are a few metamagic feats that are constructed so as to
make stacking worthless or pointless. You cannot, for example,
get more than maximum damage out of a spell by maximizing
the spell more than once. (If you want to send the spell’s
damage through the roof, use Empower Spell multiple times.)
Heighten Spell already allows you set the spell’s effective level
anywhere you want (and can manage), so there’s no point in
applying the feat more than once.

-Hyp.

 

[green slime]

From the SRD
Heighten Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit: A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a minor globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.

I can't see anything about applying +1 multiple times...

How you choose to interpret it is your choice. But there are other perfectly justified interpretations.

 

[Taluron]

I'd say no. Look at what Heigten say. It INCREASES the level. Not 'adds '. Heighten doesn't have a cost per se so there is nothing for the Improved Metmagic to reduce.

 

[Quixon]

No.

Improved Metamagic cannot reduce the cost to less than 1, if the metamagic had a positive cost beforehand.

Heighten Spell has a cost of 1. 1, minus 1, to a minimum of 1, is still ... 1.

Just because you can apply it multiple times (say, twice, toa fireball), doesn't make it a SINGLE metamagic with a cost of +2 levels.

Empower (cost +2), and Improved Metamagic (reduce costs by 1, to minimum of 1), has a +1 cost. So you could double-empower that fireball, and use a 5th level slot, not a 7th level slot.

But Heighten cannot be made cheaper via Improved Metamagic. Improved MEtamagick looks at each seperate instance of each seperate metamagic, and reduces the cost of each of them by 1, to a minimum of 1 each.

So 2 heightens (+1, +1) still add 2 levels to teh base spell, wether you have Improved Metamagic once, ten times, a thousand times, or not at all.

Sorry but thats incorrect-NOWHERE does it say that when you Heighten a spell by 3 levels that you are doing 3 +1's. In fact the FAQ( as Hypersmurf showed) says different.

If you use Heighten spell to raise a spell 3 levels-you have used Heighten spell ONCE at a +3 level.

So YES you can use Improved Metamagic with Heighten spell-can you cast a Fireball at 4th level, but still use a 3rd level slot-NO-because Improved MEtamagic says can't lower the cost below +1. You can cast it as 5th level but use a 4th level slot though-cost still at +1.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Actually, guys, Skip, SKR, and Rich Baker all have sounded off on this on the boards (although, sadly, it hasn't made it into the errata). Heighten Spell doesn't have a level cost per se; it changes the spell's effective level. Thus, Improved Metamagic doesn't work at all with Heighten, precisely as Taluron stated.