Improved Expert Class for PC

poilbrun

Explorer
Hello all!

I've tried making an Expert PC Class. Here's what I've put together :

I've rated this class using the 2 systems for rating classes I found on the web.
  • The Class Construction Engine by Khepri of SHADOWCRAFT STUDIOS, available at http://www.community3e.com/dn/class/class_d20cce.pdf. The average score for a class in this system is 250, the lowest one being 215. This expert class has a score of 245 (I doubled the cost for the number of class skills, as an ad hoc adjustment since the skills can be selected instead of being forced on the player).
  • The Challenge Rating pdf by Upper Krust, available in the thread in this forum at http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=66470, contains a class rating system in the Design Parameters section. The average score for a class in this system is 116.72, the lowest one being 109.41. I came up with 106.86 for this Expert Class (again, doubling the cost for the number of class skills).

Now that this is out of the way, here's the class in itself.

  1. Hit Die : d8
  2. Class Skills : the expert can choose any 15 skills to be class skills
  3. Skill Points : 8 + Int Modifier
  4. BAB : As cleric
  5. Good Saves : Fortitude, Willpower
  6. Proficiencies : all Simple weapons and Light armor
  7. Class Features : 1 feat gained every even level (2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20), to be selected in the following list (Acrobatic, Agile, Alertness, Animal Affinity, Athletic, Deceitful, Deft Hands, Diligent, Investigator, Magical Aptitude, Negotiator, Nimble Fingers, Persuasive, Self-Sufficient, Skill Focus, Stealthy).
    Alternatively, the character can choose one of the following special abilities instead of a feat.
    • Skill Mastery : Upon gaining this ability, she selects a number of skills equal to 3 + her Intelligence modifier. When making a skill check with one of these skills, she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so. This ability can only be taken once. She must be at least a 10th-level expert to take this ability.
    • Skill Specialty* : Upon gaining this ability, the expert selects a class skill and receives a +1 bonus on any check with that skill. Additional selection of this ability can improve the bonus to +2 and +3.
    • Instant Mastery* : The expert gains 4 ranks in any Intelligence-based skill (including cross-class skills) in which she currently has no rank in. This ability can only be taken once.
    • Expert* : The expert selects a specific Craft, Knowledge, or Profession skill. She receives a +2 expert bonus on checks made using the selected skill.
*Taken from the Tech Specialist in Star Wars D20.

Now, here is the reason for some of the changes.
  • Hit Die : I raised it mainly because I designed this class for a Skull & Bones campaign, where no one has a d4, and only spellcasters and rogues have a d6 (even though I'd raise the rogue to 1d8 to be on par with the new character classes if anyone had decided to play one in my campaign). Furthermore, the PrC specifically tailored for expert-type characters gives them a d8.
  • Class Skills and Skill Points : I wanted to make this class as good as the rogue as far as skills are concerned, so I upped the skill points, which nearly "required" raising the number of class skills. As a comparison, the rogue gets 8 skill points and 29 class skills.
  • Saves : No clear reason why I improved the saves. It was the last change I made, mainly to raise the rating of the class in the two rating system I used since I found that this class was a bit on the weak side compared to the other classes. I chose to raise fortitude instead of reflex because I didn't want the expert to further step on the rogue's toes. The main problem this causes, though, is that it makes for great Expert/Rogues.
  • Class Features : I found the fighter's 1 feat/2 levels appealing for this class, especially given the increased number of "skill" feats in 3.5e. I decided to add the special abilities to give an incentive to take the class once you get the skill focus and +2/+2 feats you want for your character. I decided to put a level limit on Skill Mastery to duplicate the fact that the rogue can only gain this ability at 10th level, and because it would unbalance things too much in my mind for a 2nd level expert to be able to take 10 in any situation with up to 7 skills.

I think this class will work well in my Skulls and Bones campaign. If I use it in a normal D&D campaign, I will probably lower the Hit Die to a d6, giving him proficiency with medium armor and/or shields to compensate. It will probably replace the rogue as the skill class, but given that it has no combat feature at all, I don't think it will overshadow the thief too much.

Any thoughts on this?
 

log in or register to remove this ad

poilbrun said:
Hello all!
I've tried making an Expert PC Class. Here's what I've put together :

<snip>

Any thoughts on this?
Hi!
Well, to tell the truth, I think it could be improved here and there.
It's not a matter of game balance, the fact is that IMO it's flavourless in a standard D&D campaign, or it could become outrageously powerful in a skill-interaction based campaign.
Classes are interesting when they've focused class abilities (but not rule-breaking, of course) so you can develop interesting stories/PCs around them. I don't like metaclasses, they're not for D&D. The expert class is good to make NpCs but I'd split it in four or five interesting classes for PCs rather than leaving a generic class that steps on the feet of rogues without adding game flavour.

Experts book from Skirmisher Game divides experts into craftsmen, entertainers, professionals, scholars and tradesmen.
Maybe you could make your expert class more specific, forcing the players to take a path of expertise at 1st level and adding some path abilities at some levels. Free bonus feats are bad game design, as someone said before me; better substituting them with neat abilities - not easy but long-time rewarding.

Just my opinion.
 
Last edited:

It's funny, I've made about the same changes IMC (well, I've not changed HD nor saves) : The Expert gets bonus feats at each level a Fighter gets a bonus combat feat.

However, the expert-only bonus feats I've added are different.
Greater Skill Focus: +5 in said skill, requires Skill Focus, don't stack with it.
Skill Mastery: Applies only to one skill.
Routine-Minded: Extra +5 competence bonus on a skill when taking 10 (in effect, it's roughly "Taking 15").
Skill Specialization: Extra +5 competence bonus in a set utilisation of a skill (like craft weaponsmithing for forging swords, but not axes or cudgel, alchemy for creating thunderstone; spellcraft to identify spells from the Enchantment school when they are casted, jump when making high jumps; escape artists when attempting to freed oneself from manacles; diplomacy when trying to calm an angry mob; or another specialized task within a skill).
 

Draugin said:
Hello! :)

Draugin said:
Well, to tell the truth, I think it could be improved here and there.
It's not a matter of game balance, the fact is that IMO it's flavourless in a standard D&D campaign, or it could become outrageously powerful in a skill-interaction based campaign.
Well, I believe it all depends on how you view it. I tend to like classes such as the fighter or the eldritch knight mainly because they are what you call "flavourless". I don't really see how the expert would ever become outrageously powerful compared to the rogue. What advantage does he have? He can select his class skills. But, seriously, what advantage does it give him? Is there any really important skill that the rogue doesn't have? And then, of course, once the campaign pace changes to normal D&D, he's back to being behind the rogue in utility.

Draugin said:
Classes are interesting when they've focused class abilities (but not rule-breaking, of course) so you can develop interesting stories/PCs around them. I don't like metaclasses, they're not for D&D.
Well, personally, I prefer to select a class that suits the story I want to tell, rather than to tell a story around the class. Different point of views, I guess.

Draugin said:
The expert class is good to make NpCs but I'd split it in four or five interesting classes for PCs rather than leaving a generic class that steps on the feet of rogues without adding game flavour.
Experts book from Skirmisher Game divides experts into craftsmen, entertainers, professionals, scholars and tradesmen.
Maybe you could make your expert class more specific, forcing the players to take a path of expertise at 1st level and adding some path abilities at some levels.
Experts (the book) is great for NPC, but the point of creating a PC Expert class is clearly to offer some kind of freedom as far as the skills are concerned. The goal of the abilities I added are mainly there to enable a character to focus on a particular skill. If a character has Skill Focus, a +2/+2 feat, Expert, 3 Skill Specialties and Skill Mastery, he can always take 10 for a minimum result of 23 + Ability modifier to one skill.

Draugin said:
Free bonus feats are bad game design, as someone said before me; better substituting them with neat abilities - not easy but long-time rewarding.
Our opinions are clearly different on this, then. However, I'm the kind of guy who'd try a classless D&D if any good system was available! :p

Draugin said:
Just my opinion.
Thanks a lot! My conclusion on your critics is that it will probably not unbalance the game, but there is a flavour problem with the class. I'll try to find some more special ability to take instead of feats to try and resolve that.

Gez said:
It's funny, I've made about the same changes IMC (well, I've not changed HD nor saves) : The Expert gets bonus feats at each level a Fighter gets a bonus combat feat.
As I said, the main reason why I changed HD was to put it on par with other class from Skulls & Bones, which is the campaign with which I'll use it. As I said, the save was a last-minute change, I'm not sure if it really fits. However, that's one more reason to select the class, even though it is quite weak as far as combat is concerned.

Gez said:
However, the expert-only bonus feats I've added are different.
Greater Skill Focus: +5 in said skill, requires Skill Focus, don't stack with it.
Consider this one stolen! But please don't report it to the cops! :D

Gez said:
Skill Mastery: Applies only to one skill.
I'll probably go with this one too, and remove the level limitation. I mainly designed my Skill Mastery as a clear copy of the rogue special ability.

Gez said:
Routine-Minded: Extra +5 competence bonus on a skill when taking 10 (in effect, it's roughly "Taking 15").
Not sure about this one. With my example above, it would mean that a 10th-level expert could in theory alway have a minimum of 28 + Ability modifier on a skill check. I found 23 quite high, but ok because the character was clearly focused on one skill, not sure about 28.

Gez said:
Skill Specialization: Extra +5 competence bonus in a set utilisation of a skill (like craft weaponsmithing for forging swords, but not axes or cudgel, alchemy for creating thunderstone; spellcraft to identify spells from the Enchantment school when they are casted, jump when making high jumps; escape artists when attempting to freed oneself from manacles; diplomacy when trying to calm an angry mob; or another specialized task within a skill).
Not sure about this one neither. While I would see no problem in allowing an expert to take this, I can see some issues when multiclassing. Sure, a character would have to surrender two levels in his other class to be able to take thie ability, but a +5 to one use seems a bit too much, especially considering that an equivalent feat (combat casting) only give +4.

I'll ponder this for a while. Thanks for the help! :cool:
 

I like it! I've been putting off doing something similar for a while... I'm going to steal liberally from these versions.

I'd "independantly" come up with the Skill Mastery for only 1 skill per application, but I don't know what to call it -- Effortless Expertise?

Other Expert-oriented Feats:

Skill Specialization:
Requirement: 3 levels of Expert
Benefit: When performing a specific type of skill check, you gain a +4 bonus. Combat Casting is an example of a +4 bonus to a specific type of Concentration check (Casting Defensively). Another example would be crafting swords as a specific type of Craft (Weaponsmith) check.
Special: You may take this Feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time, you pick a different skill and specialization (or a different specialization within the same skill).

Coordinate Apprentices:
Requirement: 6 levels of Expert
Benefit: You gain +3 per helper assigned to your service, who takes the Aid Another action in helping you make a Craft or Profession check, up to a maximum of +9.

Greater Skill Focus:
Requiement: Skill Focus in the desired skill, 8 levels of Expert
Benefit: You gain a +5 bonus to a single skill check. This overlaps (does not stack with) the bonus provided by Skill Focus.
Special: You may take this Feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time, it applies to another skill in which you have Skill Focus.


My version will be:
d6 HD
1/2 BAB
Good Save: Will

6 Skill Points/level
All skills are class skills

Bonuses by Level:
1, 2: Skill Focus (any Craft, Profession, Knowlege)
4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20: Bonus Feat

Bonus Feats can be drawn from:
- Skill Focus
- Skill Specialization (Requirement: 3 levels of Expert)
- Effortless Expertise (Requirement: 4 levels of Expert)
- Coordinate (Requirement: 6 levels of Expert)
- Greater Skill Focus (Requirement: 8 levels of Expert)

-- N
 

Initially, all my feats that gave +5 bonuses gave only +4 bonuses; but since the revision upped Skill Focus to +3...

An amusing thing, Nifft's Greater Skill Focus and Skill Specialization are the same (roughly) as mines...

Oh yes, by the way, completely forgot to tell the prerequisites:
Greater Skill Focus: Requires Skill Focus (in same, of course);
Skill Spec requires GSF (in same, again);
Skill Mastery requires Skill Focus (in same, as always);
Routine-Minded requires Skill Mastery (in same, you bet it).
 

poilbrun said:
Hello! :)
Well, I believe it all depends on how you view it. I tend to like classes such as the fighter or the eldritch knight mainly because they are what you call "flavourless".
Hi! Yes, you're right, I think that the eldritch knight it's flavourless also, you got my point of view. :)
I don't really see how the expert would ever become outrageously powerful compared to the rogue. What advantage does he have? He can select his class skills. But, seriously, what advantage does it give him? Is there any really important skill that the rogue doesn't have? And then, of course, once the campaign pace changes to normal D&D, he's back to being behind the rogue in utility.
I wasn't clear enough. I said it in the hypothesis you were playing a most-roleplaying campaign mainly without combat. Having more skills & related feats (skill focus, double bonus) could make for a better PC. But well, if you're playing a standard campaign, you're right, there is no problem.
Well, personally, I prefer to select a class that suits the story I want to tell, rather than to tell a story around the class. Different point of views, I guess.
Touché. :)
The problem is that in D&D there are some things you cannot do if you haven't got a special class ability (or a feat). That's why I say D&D is more for classes than for metaclasses. Vanilla skills don't let you do very much, unless your master (you in this case :)) is open minded. So, in this case I think there is no problem, but if you were a game designer thinking a class for everyone, you should clearly describe a set of abilities etc.
Experts (the book) is great for NPC, but the point of creating a PC Expert class is clearly to offer some kind of freedom as far as the skills are concerned. The goal of the abilities I added are mainly there to enable a character to focus on a particular skill. If a character has Skill Focus, a +2/+2 feat, Expert, 3 Skill Specialties and Skill Mastery, he can always take 10 for a minimum result of 23 + Ability modifier to one skill.
And that's good. It's up to you making interesting situations in which all these bonuses are usuful. :)
Our opinions are clearly different on this, then. However, I'm the kind of guy who'd try a classless D&D if any good system was available! :p
Uhm that could be interesting, if there were a good system. I'm not saying custom-made classes are bad, only that I don't think a class that bases only on skills, without other abilities, is "ok" within D&D boundaries. It's a gut feeling, I don't know how to translate it. :)
I think that the Akashic (or whatever it is) from Monte Cook Arcana Unearthed is a class based on skills, but sadly I haven't got my copy yet. Maybe you should give a look because I read it had skills & neat abilities.
Thanks a lot! My conclusion on your critics is that it will probably not unbalance the game, but there is a flavour problem with the class. I'll try to find some more special ability to take instead of feats to try and resolve that.
I'm happy you appreciated even if we have different points of view.
Anyway, you're doing a thoughtful job. Good work!

PS: I'm developing a sage class (a "scholar oriented expert PC class?") and I'll post it on the boards, so I can get my part of the critics. ;)
 

I had the same idea of giving fighter bonus feats and skill mastery to experts awhile back; don't think I ever posted it. You've done a good job expanding on that here. I've recently thought about making Expert the ONLY class in my game, with CofC's offense/defense option to govern BAB/saves.
 



Remove ads

Top