If a Rogue never steals anything, is that Rogue still a Thief?

[Tuzenbach]

That's what I want to know. Are all Rogues considered Thieves? And are all Thieves considered Rogues?


Thanks!!!

 

[delericho]

Well, no. Which is probably at least part of the reason the class name was changed.

Of course, technically just about every PC is a thief at some point: most of that stuff they loot belongs to someone.

 

[David Fair]

Of course not... It is quite easy to imagine a spellcaster using his spells to obtain goods illegally, a fighting class using their brawn to do so, etc. The rogue gets by on his skills, not his brute strength or magic. What he does with those skills defines whether he is a thief or not.

 

[GMMichael]

What if a thief never does anything dishonest? Is he still a rogue?

This discussion belongs right next to the "what is the difference between knight and cavalier" thread.

 

[Lanefan]

A Rogue is just a Thief in 3e/4e/5e clothing; and even if he never in fact steals anything he still has training in *how* to steal, training that most other classes do not get. Same could be said of a Magic-User who for whatever reason never casts a spell, or a Fighter who gets by on guile and charisma rather than violence; they both still are what they are.

Lan-"If an Assassin never kills by stealth is she still an Assassin?"-efan

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

That's what I want to know. Are all Rogues considered Thieves? And are all Thieves considered Rogues?


Thanks!!!

No. I've never liked "klepto rogues" anyway. I had bad experiences watching rogue players who thought they "must" steal in 2e.

In d20 Modern, the same skill that lets you steal stuff also lets you hide weapons. In the modern world, it's not a good idea to walk around with obvious pistols, so many PCs hid them. Alas, that meant the occasional thievery hijinks. A good one was a gunslinger palming a cell phone bomb into the bad boss's pocket, and then calling him. KABOOM! Less funny was the PC who insisted on stealing a custom officer's badge and ended up failing to fight off a SWAT team.

 

[Razjah]

No not all rogues are thieves. I find most class names to be something iconic and somewhat loaded. A fighter calls to mind a certain archetype from stories, a rogue something else. Classes for games do the same thing, but through the mechanics of a game lens. A rogue approaches a situation very differently from a cleric or a wizard or a fighter.

In another note, does anyone else think these questions are a bit like "if a tree falls in the forest, and no one is around, does it make any sound?" I can't help thinking that every time I read a title like this.

 

[N'raac]

A Rogue is just a Thief in 3e/4e/5e clothing; and even if he never in fact steals anything he still has training in *how* to steal, training that most other classes do not get. Same could be said of a Magic-User who for whatever reason never casts a spell, or a Fighter who gets by on guile and charisma rather than violence; they both still are what they are.

Not sure how the 3e rogue is "trained to steal". He's trained in those skills he places skill ranks in. He may know how to Open Locks - did he learn that in the form of picking locks, or constructing locks (so all locksmiths are thieves)? Perhaps he knows Sleight of Hand - did he learn that as a pickpocket or a stage magician?

Forgery seems geared to theft, but do most Rogues/Thieves put ranks in it? Bluff would be the skill of choice for any con artist, but seems like it goes to a lot of other classes. Did you learn to Climb as a cat burglar or a mountaineer? Hiding and moving silently lend themselves to many activities besides thievery (every Special Forces operative is a thief?).

Seems like most "thief skills" are also used as "non-thief skills". Pathfinder, in combining some of those skills, further watered down the "thief" argument, most notably merging Open Locks with Disable Device.

Class is the tools the character has. The four archetypes have Arcane Magic; Divine Magic; Martial Prowess and Skills. I could easily see a 14 INT Human Rogue (11 skill points per level) never putting a rank in a "thieving skill", depending on the build. Let's see:

- he's agile and athletic so Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Jump, Ride, Tumble

- he's perceptive, so Spot and Listen

- he's a social butterfly, so Diplomacy, Gather Information, Sense Motive

He's not even stealthy, nor does he have the ever-popular Use Magic Device. Show me how he is a Thief.

I recall our party Rogue (as I recall, this was back in 1e) watching our party Cleric remove a necklace from a skeleton, only to be attacked by an apparition of the dead owner. After it was vanquished, the Cleric was complaining of his wounds and the Rogue told him it "serves you right for being a disgusting grave-robbing Thief ".

 

[TarionzCousin]

A thief, by explicit definition, is someone who commits theft. If a rogue never steals anything, he isn't a thief.

If, however, he steals from his own party, he is just "non-verbally" asking to be killed.

 

[Celebrim]

Most interestingly, in 1e/2e AD&D a thief was still a thief even if they never stole anything. It was more the capacity for skullduggery that defined the class, than the actual immorality of it.

I suspect that was part of the thinking that got the class name changed from thief to rogue. In 2e, not every rogue was a thief - some were bards.

In any edition, there are examples of thieves or rogues that aren't criminals (necessarily at least).

Circus acrobats, clowns, jesters, spies, sentinels, courtiers, courtesans, actors, and detectives could all be rogues or thieves - even though their own society might not consider them criminals. Additionally, the criminal trade implied by 'thief' or 'rogue' isn't necessarily limited to pickpocket, mugger, burglar, bandit, pirate, cutpurse, and similar trades of overt theft. There are thieves or rogues who are smugglers, con-artists and various specialists in larceny (diplomats?), gamblers, forgers, fences, prostitutes, beggars, and pretty much any trade where dishonesty could be part of the job description (sales-person?, advertising executive?, lawyer?, politician?).

Of course, class is not profession and profession is not class, so any given thief need not have the thief class. Muggers, bandits, highwaymen, pirates and similar thugs might well be fighters or some other more martial class. In 3e, there is a high likelihood that most of the professions for which the rogue is well suited, are more commonly simply experts of some sort and in some cases even commoners. In 1e there was a high likelihood that someone had developed a specific class for any given profession and had it published somewhere.