How to kill a dragon.

[brehobit]

Hello all,
I'm currently running an adventure which involves a fair number of dragons.

The party has happened upon a spell, "downdraft" in the spell compendium. 3rd level cleric (and druid?).

In any case, if cast on a dragon it _will_ drop the dragon 50' (baring spell resistance), and maybe 100'. This means the close-combat folks can rapidly close, which makes the whole thing a LOT simpler.

It's not that the spell is overpowered per se, it's just that the cleric, by RAW, being able to cast new spells like this, becomes MUCH more effective.

In the current fight, it wasn't horrible. The tanks all closed and then the dragon withdrew, drawing a single AoO. The CR 5 dragon took ~60 points of damage in that time, but lived. But next time, someone is going to use a net, lasso, or something to keep it still. And while hand-to-hand with a dragon isn't fun, the party would likely kill it after only taking 1 full attack, *maybe* two.

Just something that I thought I'd share....

Mark

 

[shilsen]

In the current fight, it wasn't horrible. The tanks all closed and then the dragon withdrew, drawing a single AoO. The CR 5 dragon...

You have a CR 5 dragon going up against a party of CR 5 PCs (presuming the others are the same level as the cleric casting Downdraft). That means the PCs should be able to kill it using only 20% of their resources and with absolutely no chance of even a single PC dying. Sounds like it worked out about right to me, and arguably the fact that the dragon escaped means the PCs did much worse than they should have.

 

[Wraith-Hunter]

Just another reason why I hate clerics. Any new book comes out they automagically get all the new spells. Not to mention all the other goodies.

Frankly if I run a game again, all healing spells will be universal, so you don't NEED a cleric in a group if nobody wants to play them. They can still keep their undead turning and such, but the problem as I see it is they were made the be the most powerfull character to entice people who don't want to play a devout character to play one. Simply because every group needs a medic.

That is the real problem they could tone down clerics ALOT and people who like them would still play them, though they would not be required in a group, and the people who like playing the most powerfull character would be something else. Better for all.

In regards to killing dragons, controling the enviornment is always the best way in my experience but not always easy to do. There is alot of good stuff in the Dragonomicon though. Lots of it is not as usefull for general purpose stuff but great for campaigns where you fight alot of dragons.

 

[Land Outcast]

ok... they willingly get into close melee with a dragon...

someone is going to use a net, lasso, or something to keep it still.

Most breath weapons render that useless

Very Young Red Dragon; CR 5; 95 hp
40-ft. cone; 4d6 fire; Ref 18
Full Attack: Bite +14 (2d6+5), 2 Claws +12 (1d8+2), 2 wings +12 (1d6+2)
Fort +10; Will +8

Our better-than average greatsword-wielding lvl 5 Fighter has
57 hp (5d10+15)
AC 20 (Dex +1, +1 Full plate)
Ref +2

That means more than half attacks hit each time and he has 25% chance of eating half the breath weapon, and 75% of getting it whole.

Now, lets say Bite, one claw, and one wing hit: averaging 24 damage. (Add the AoO he has with the bite when he closes in and you have 12 more damage).

Another full attack and the fighter could go down. Of course, the challenge decreases with dropping the draggy to the floor, but he can still almost take someone with him (also, consider a CR 5 is supposed to make them spend 20% resources).

Summary: While the dragon can still instill some fear, a 5th level party able to deal 60 damage to a dragon in one round has Frightful Prescence.

Do your dragons know of this fantastic spell, feather fall?
Could they get a ring of it or something the like?

 

[brehobit]

You have a CR 5 dragon going up against a party of CR 5 PCs (presuming the others are the same level as the cleric casting Downdraft). That means the PCs should be able to kill it using only 20% of their resources and with absolutely no chance of even a single PC dying. Sounds like it worked out about right to me, and arguably the fact that the dragon escaped means the PCs did much worse than they should have.

Yeah,
But dragons are _way_ under CRed. This guy has over 100 Hps, and AC of 23 and access to a few potions. Without this spell the party would require a lot of luck to kill it off (or more likely have it run away). In the current fight the dragon "landed". He then flew off (withdrew) to a fairly inaccessible location (150 feet away and 40 feet up) and drank a healing potion (ok, probably ate the whole thing), getting up to around 60 hps. The we had to stop until next week, so I don't know how it will end.

The spell is _really_ nasty though. In the right situation it drops you from the air and does 5d6 damage with no save. Pretty good really.

 

[brehobit]

Summary: While the dragon can still instill some fear, a 5th level party able to deal 60 damage to a dragon in one round has Frightful Prescence.

Do your dragons know of this fantastic spell, feather fall?
Could they get a ring of it or something the like?

If the dragon lives to fight another day, he's gonna want such a ring, that's for sure. He was shocked he could be pulled out of the air like that. And the 60 damage just added to the shock.

The damage does seem high, but the party is quite buffed (including nearly immune to the breath weapon due to resists/protections) and they have 4 3rd level NPCs with them, including a marshal. The NPCs, other than the marshal, haven't had any impact on the fight (well one prevented a PC from charging), but the marshal is scary in combination with the swordsage (He gives +1 damage to the whole party, an extra +2 if you're flanking and the swordsage has a 1st level stance that makes flanking pretty much automatic for the whole party against a single target).