D&D 5E How powerful is charm in 5e?

[S'mon]

I think I let a complaining player last night push me into running it more powerful than it should be - he was used to 1e charm person and was annoyed his charmees wouldn't attack their own allies. Conversely I had the charmees not attack the PC's allies, basically removing them from combat. I also didn't gve advtg on the saves since the charms were cast before anyone attacked. I didn't give new saves when the charmees allies were attacked.

How do you run charm in 5e? What does 'friendly acquaintance' mean? Do you give new saves to break the charm?

 

[Eubani]

Acquaintance = Someone you know maybe get along with but a not particularly close. Your player is looking more on the dominate side of things. Keep in mind it is a first level spell largely designed for out of combat use, your player is expecting far too much from it.

 

[CydKnight]

I don't see this as a spell you use to control someone to attack it's own allies in combat but I suppose it could be possible with the right circumstances and some additional dice rolls. It is already powerful in that it will likely prevent foes from attacking you when successful as it simply makes them friendly to you when perhaps they otherwise are not. If you want to influence that charmed person to do something for you, you still have to convince it via Charisma/Pursuasion check to convince him/her to do something they wouldn't ordinarily do. They absolutely won't do anything that would intentionally harm itself.

 

[thethain]

Charm and the charmed condition are pretty weak in 5e. Charm in particular makes you a friendly acquaintance, something short of a friend, but at least recognizable to the subject. So would almost certainly let you skip by some kind of ID check. If cast on an important person they could smooze you through all sorts of places. But going by the book, even friendly reaction NPCs require a high persuade DC to actually stick their neck out for you.

My personal realization of how limited charm is, was when I was trying to get a full grasp on the warlock's Create Thrall ability, which is absurdly overpowered with older editions idea of charm. You touch an unconscious humanoid and they are charmed (with no save) until it is cured or you use it again. The idea of having a permanent archmage minion if I can knock one out is pretty enticing! However, when you actually read the charmed condition, you have advantage on charisma checks and they can't overtly attack you. Oh. Well it still is neat, but certainly less fun than the name implies. Knocking out the BBEG and making him your minion sure would be a fun end to a campaign.

Anyways, Charm is far far less than dominate. And players and DMs must keep that in mind.

EDIT: Suggestion however is pretty OP. Although its a little confusing as the spell description implies it needs to sound reasonable, but then gives examples of forcing them to give away their possessions, which normally is far beyond reasonable.

 

[Eubani]

Another thing to keep in mind is that Charm Person does not change personality or morals.

 

[iserith]

I think I let a complaining player last night push me into running it more powerful than it should be - he was used to 1e charm person and was annoyed his charmees wouldn't attack their own allies. Conversely I had the charmees not attack the PC's allies, basically removing them from combat. I also didn't gve advtg on the saves since the charms were cast before anyone attacked. I didn't give new saves when the charmees allies were attacked.

How do you run charm in 5e? What does 'friendly acquaintance' mean? Do you give new saves to break the charm?

Another fine example of "Don't bring your assumptions from one game into another game, even if they both happen to be called 'D&D'."

I handle it via the Social Interaction rules in the DMG. "A friendly creature wants to help the adventurers and wishes for them to succeed." Whatever that means in context, which can vary. If a request of the charmed creature comes with cost or risk, there's a Charisma check. I think the smart play when fighting a group of creatures is to figure out which one is the leader or has the most pull and charm that one since it can then presumably exert influence of its comrades. If it's not obvious who the leader is, it may call for an Wisdom (Insight) check, on par with determining characteristics in a normal social interaction.

I think how you handled it was just fine. As a player I'd be good with that - a 1st-level spell effectively removing a combatant? It's just as good as straight damage in most cases and sometimes better.

 

[Kalshane]

Charm Person is very much not meant as combat spell in 5E (though it will prevent the charmee from attacking you). It's more of a social spell, between the Charmed condition granting you Advantage on Charisma checks against the subject and the fact they automatically see you as a friendly acquaintance means you can use it get information/access you wouldn't be able to via mundane means.

 

[Oofta]

A friendly acquaintance is the guy you chat with occasionally at work/school but don't see outside of your shared environment.

In very unusual circumstances the NPC's allegiance may already be on very shaky ground but otherwise it's not going to have a lot of effect. At best he will apologize while he's attacking you "Sorry about this, it's nothing personal. But I gotta follow orders, business is business."

 

[Gardens & Goblins]

Charm Condition

• A charmed creature can’t Attack the charmer or target the charmer with harmful Abilities or magical effects.
• The charmer has advantage on any ability check to interact socially with the creature.

Charm Person

You attempt to charm a humanoid you can see within range. It must make a Wisdom saving throw, and does so with advantage if you or your companions are fighting it. If it fails it is charmed by you until the spell ends or until you or your companions do something harmful to it. The charmed creature regards you as a friendly acquaintance. When the spell ends it knows it has been charmed.

The target likes the charmer, making it easier for the charmer to socialise with them. They won't hurt the charmer until the charmer or their companions harm the target. (I won't argue the the charmer or their friends harming the the target's friends may cause them emotional distress, which is harmful, but we could.)

The target can still shout out in distress (''Hey Lovely Geoff! Why the violence?! Guards help us! It's for your own good Lovely Geoff/I am scared!)'' and or do things to hinder the charmer, such a try to place themselves between Lovely Geoff and another target (''Lovely Geoff! Boggle Eyed Barry! Guys, c'mon! Stop this madness!'').

The target can still hinder the charmer by healing/aiding others (''Lovely Geoff, did you mean to cut Boggle Eyed Barry's hand? Have no fear, I shall heal you Boggled Eyed Barry!).

 

[cmad1977]

EDIT: Suggestion however is pretty OP. Although its a little confusing as the spell description implies it needs to sound reasonable, but then gives examples of forcing them to give away their possessions, which normally is far beyond reasonable.

I dunno...
'Hey pal! You look tired! You work so hard. Surely I can ease your burdens today by carrying your things for you! That's what friends are for after all!'



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