D&D 5E How does the Monk perform? (and revisiting monk spells)

[Xeviat]

Hey everyone. I haven't gotten a chance to see a monk in play. They look cool, and I'm eager to see one.

How do they work out? I'm under the impression that damage isn't their forte. They don't get a significant level 10 and 17 boost like the warrior classes tend to get. Their flurry doesn't really get much better. The damage gain to their martial arts is small; it's nice that it spreads out among all their attacks, but their damage per attack still doesn't even equal that of a Fighter with the Dueling style (1d8+7 vs. 1d10+5), and they need to use Ki to keep up with the fighter's 4 attacks at 20 (though they did have 4 attacks far earlier than the Fighter did).

But I know that's not all the monk has going for them. Since "typical" combats don't last very long, it isn't long before the monk can afford to drop a ki every round on flurry and still have plenty to spare for stunning fists and other tricks. How do they function in play? Are they best for support, stunning choice targets for the others to focus fire on? Or is it good for them to use their ki for defense and be a wall?

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I recently took the time to sit down and actually read the Sun Soul monk in fullness, and I noticed something interesting about their burning hands spell; it costs the same 2 ki that you'd expect a 1st level spell to cost based on the formula put out in the PHB for the 4 elements monk, but they get to cast it as a bonus action. Does this suggest a way to work on adjusting the 4 elements monk to make it more playable?

 

[mellored]

Monks of any kind should be using stunning strike as the primary ki use. That makes then very powerful vs single targets, but weaker against multi-targets. They can outright win a fight by simply not letting the enemy get a turn.

Remember that ki is per short rest, not long. So their offense grows more gradually with more flurries and stuns rather then all at once with an extra attack. You will be able to flurry and stun nearly every round at high levels.

Of course, if your against a horde of kobolds, then the burning hands or fireball makes a nice option. It gives them good anti-horde options. Where as open hand is doubling down on the single target.

 

[abirdcall]

Monks are great. Best to think of them as a Rogue alt. rather than a Fighter alt.

The problem with the 4 Elements Monk is that its abilities don't add to the class, they take away from the base class abilities by requiring all of your Ki.

Here is a remake of the 4 Elements Monk:

https://drive.google.com/a/nocturnalcommissions.com/file/d/0B1pdYIcfHauwNDM2My1XeWFYSDA/view

 

[Illithidbix]

Currently playing a low level Way of the Four Elements monk and very much enjoying it.
Remember that your action economy is Ki (1 per monk level per short rest) and your bonus action.

Multiple attacks with lowish damage dice, but full Attribute modifier to damage does add up.
Stunning Strike is exceptionally powerful, esp. when you have a search and find only 4 spells in the PHB that Stun targets: Contagion via Slimy Doom (5th level), Divine Word (7th level), Symbol (7th Level) and of course Power Word Stun (8th level).

I think the Monk is a fun class to play, with lots of cool tricks, and the three Monastic Traditions feel quite different.

I think the biggest issue with the Monk is working out what role they have in the party.

On a side note I think a large issue with the Way of the Four Elements vs other traditions can be illustrated.
A Level three WoTFE monk gets a special cantrip and a choice of a 1st level spell (or equivalent) to cast for 2 Ki points at level 3.

At level three the Way of the Shadows Monk gets a Cantrip (minor illusion) and four level 2 spells they can cast for 2 Ki points (Darkness, Darkvision, Pass without Trace and Silence).

 

[abirdcall]

On a side note I think a large issue with the Way of the Four Elements vs other traditions can be illustrated.
A Level three WoTFE monk gets a special cantrip and a choice of a 1st level spell (or equivalent) to cast for 2 Ki points at level 3.

At level three the Way of the Shadows Monk gets a Cantrip (minor illusion) and four level 2 spells they can cast for 2 Ki points (Darkness, Darkvision, Pass without Trace and Silence).

It doesn't stop there. The Shadow Monk later gets abilities that don't cost Ki at all, like a short range teleport.

The 4 Elements Monk continues to require Ki. Not only that, but many of their spells require concentration too.

 

[Bardbarian]

Vs hordes the Sun soul seems a very good alternative to the Elements monk. It almost feels like it was designed to take over this niche at the expense of variety gaining consistency.

 

[Celtavian]

I played an Open Hand Monk to 6th level. I found it a mixed experiences.

Pros
Stealthy. Not as Stealthy as a rogue, but you can still scout.

Damage not too bad. You get 3 attacks before anyone else. You don't have to use ki to get a 3rd attack very early on. Just your bonus action.

Some martial versatility. You get Stunning Strike and as an Open Hand monk you can knock things prone or take away their reactions which can be helpful.

Mobility is great. You definitely move faster than anyone else.

Disadvantages:
AC isn't great. Even with a 20 wisdom and dex, you'll only have a 20 AC. Most monks will start in the 16 range and go up to 18 by level 4. Even with an 18 AC, you get hit a ton.

Too bonus action intensive. Nearly everything you do require your bonus action. If you're using your bonus action for defense, you can't use it for offense. So just to become equally hard to hit as a fighter, you have to give up offense and vice versa. I found this really starts to show up at later levels as your damage drops off just to stay alive. You have to lower hit points, so you go down much easier.

Your damage output doesn't even match the rogue. The rogue is much better set up to keep safe from battle. His attack doesn't require the use of his bonus action. So he can use his Bonus Action with Cunning Action to maximize his defense without lowering his offense.

Ki runs out quickly at lower level. So you're very limited.

You don't stand out at anything except moving fast. You don't have offense or defense that makes you stand out from the rest of the party other than moving fast. If you pick up the Mobility feat, you can build a highly effective movement based monk. If your game doesn't allow feats, you're out of luck. To avoid AoOs you have to use your bonus action, which takes away from your offense and uses ki.

I found the monk very limiting and lacking compared to other classes.

 

[devincutler]

20 AC by 6th level is not great? Um....really? Seems pretty great to me. Better AC than a barbarian or rogue. Comparable to a fighter (plate plus shield). Better than bards, rangers, et al.

Please explain other than by magic items or by multiclassing gyrations how you manage an AC over 20 by 6th level with other classes.

 

[NotActuallyTim]

20 AC by 6th level is not great? Um....really? Seems pretty great to me. Better AC than a barbarian or rogue. Comparable to a fighter (plate plus shield). Better than bards, rangers, et al.

Please explain other than by magic items or by multiclassig gyratios how you manage an AC over 20 by 6th level with other classes.

Play a wizard. Infinite AC! Because magic!

No seriously, grab Bladesinger and the Shield spell. Go wild.

 

[Duan'duliir]

If you have a Dex 20, Con 20 Barbarian and give them a shield, they can have AC 22.

On topic, I've got two groups with each containing a player with a monk. While we are at low levels (level 2 for one group, and 1 for the other) the monks are definitely the Damage Dealers of the groups (with that bonus action unarmed attack, the level 2 can easily shred through CR 2/CR 3 enemies, and they don't even bother with their flurry of blows. The other (when they actually attack) can achieve similar results for CR 1/CR 2 enemies.

Obviously at higher levels, shredding will be more difficult, but with the debuffs the monk can dish out, it will still be a boon to the party.