how does evard's black tentacles work, and/or why is it good?

[evilbob]

People often praise this spell's usefulness, but I just don't see it. I guess I'm missing something overall in this spell, because it only sounds sorta "eh" to me.

My take is that it is cast, and everything in the area immediately has to make a grapple check or be grappled. Anything not grappled basically takes one full round (or one move action if they move 40+ feet) to get out. Done. Any shifting/casting type takes one standard action to shift/cast on their turn and leaves via air - the tentacles don't make AoOs, so that's not hard. Any incorporeal things just walk right through it. And say something avoids the initial grapple check: ok. So it just takes a penalty to move for a few rounds. Nothing in the spell's description says the spell tries to re-grapple them every round - only if they leave and re-enter the spell's area. In fact, you could really hinder your own party, since a thing that avoided being grappled could just stand there and used ranged attacks against the party without your melee guys being able to reach them easily.

Now the check is significant, since it would be a +15 the level you can get it, and it does do a small amount of damage, which is great for smaller, weaker things with low HP or that can't move quickly. And anything that gets stuck isn't going anywhere until they beat a grapple check. But then they can just leave. Or just stand there, since the spell only attacks them once.

Also, I see the advantage of having grappled opponents at range (since they lose their Dex mod), but wouldn't these grappled enemies get cover or something? There are giant tentacles in the way, right? I thought I remembered that firing a ranged weapon at a grappling opponent had a 50% chance to hit either participants in the grapple - although I can't find that in the SRD at the moment. Would this spell also grant that kind of bonus?

Again, I think I must be missing something, because it just doesn't sound that useful to me. It basically seems like a nice way to attack something without giving it a save or worrying about SR, although if it resists the initial check all it really loses is a little bit of movement. Additionally, while a good anti-caster spell, it seems like any caster that got free of the effect just received a great defensive area to cast from. Anyone have thoughts or suggestions?


ps. For those who don't hate it, the FAQ offers a few clarifications about the spell: first, that it does automatically hit anything in the area, including invisible or concealed creatures (which is nice), although incorporeal creatures are unaffected and a blinking creature gets a 50% miss chance. Next, the FAQ agrees that anything in the spell's area is attacked once and then that's it (unless they re-enter the area). Although that doesn't seem to "fit" with the idea of the spell, and it also doesn't clarify whether or not the tentacles impede ranged attacks into it.

 

[Nifft]

For everyone's reference, here is the spell.

(...) Or just stand there, since the spell only attacks them once.

... per round.

Once the tentacles grapple an opponent, they may make a grapple check each round on your turn to deal 1d6+4 points of bludgeoning damage. The tentacles continue to crush the opponent until the spell ends or the opponent escapes.

Again, I think I must be missing something, because it just doesn't sound that useful to me. It basically seems like a nice way to attack something without giving it a save or worrying about SR, although if it resists the initial check all it really loses is a little bit of movement. Additionally, while a good anti-caster spell, it seems like any caster that got free of the effect just received a great defensive area to cast from.

It's a fantastic spell for stopping critters that are coming out of a confined area. It's great when paired with acid fog to make a terribly hostile environment.

ps. For those who don't hate it, the FAQ offers a few clarifications about the spell: first, that it does automatically hit anything in the area, including invisible or concealed creatures (which is nice), although incorporeal creatures are unaffected and a blinking creature gets a 50% miss chance. Next, the FAQ agrees that anything in the spell's area is attacked once and then that's it (unless they re-enter the area). Although that doesn't seem to "fit" with the idea of the spell, and it also doesn't clarify whether or not the tentacles impede ranged attacks into it.

IMHO the FAQ is wrong -- it violates the spirit of the spell. My legalistic train of thought (to bring the effect back in line with the intent) would be:

Every creature within the area of the spell must make a grapple check, opposed by the grapple check of the tentacles.

Everyone in the area when the spell is cast must make a grapple check -- that is to say, the tentacles automatically make their touch attack, and the target and tentacle enter into a grapple, which the target may resist.

Any creature that enters the area of the spell is immediately attacked by the tentacles.

Anyone who enters the area must make a grapple check -- that is to say, the tentacles automatically make their touch attack, and the target and tentacle enter into a grapple, which the target may resist.

Once the tentacles grapple an opponent, they may make a grapple check each round on your turn to deal 1d6+4 points of bludgeoning damage. The tentacles continue to crush the opponent until the spell ends or the opponent escapes.

The trick here is in reading "once the tentacles grapple an opponent". See, by the above two, every creature who was in the spell's area (or who later entered the spell's area) has already made a grapple attack, whether it entered into "grappling" or not. The spell doesn't specify that the opponent must be grappling with an opponent, only that the spell must have once grappled with that opponent. (Note: this is a terrible abuse of terminology. Such things should only be allowed in the service of making poorly phrased rules work as they should.)

Cheers, -- N

 

[evilbob]

It's a fantastic spell for stopping critters that are coming out of a confined area. It's great when paired with acid fog to make a terribly hostile environment.

Agreed - but the combo effect requires two spells and the other is location-specific. Neither really qualify this spell as a "must-have" on its own, in my opinion.

IMHO the FAQ is wrong -- it violates the spirit of the spell.

I agree in principle and I think your "word wrangling" is pretty interesting, but it still doesn't really change the wording of the spell.

And honestly, the "power level" of the spell seems appropriate for a 4th level spell if interpreted like the FAQ: you cause your enemies in an area to make a grapple check or be delayed (and slightly damaged) for several rounds. It's not a save and it doesn't care about SR, so that's pretty strong. On the flip side, anything delayed gets a new check every round to escape. And anything that avoids the initial effect is safe. Seems on-par with most other 4th level spells.


And honestly, a lot of this probably wouldn't come up: most creatures aren't going to stand in a bunch of tentacles and not just leave - especially when they can do so easily, for the low cost of a couple of move actions. The only real question is whether or not it is tactically advantageous for an opponent to remain within the spell's area if the initial check is successful.

 

[mvincent]

IMHO the FAQ is wrong -- it violates the spirit of the spell.

Agreed.

 

[Victim]

Tactically, it's often good to place the spell such that enemies are near the edge so that the enemies are within reach of your melee damage. Characters with reach make this especially attractive.

 

[evilbob]

Tactically, it's often good to place the spell such that enemies are near the edge so that the enemies are within reach of your melee damage.

True, but this also voluntarily eliminates the second (unsavable) part of the spell - the movement hindrance.

And still no one has tackled the "shooting ranged attacks into it" portion of the question.

 

[Nifft]

True, but this also voluntarily eliminates the second (unsavable) part of the spell - the movement hindrance.

Indirectly, perhaps -- it slows down your opponent's allies, so you can kill them one or two at a time (instead of being swarmed).

And still no one has tackled the "shooting ranged attacks into it" portion of the question.

The spell doesn't say that it hinders ranged attacks or provides cover; thus, it does neither. (Compare with blade barrier, for example.)

Cheers, -- N

 

[gnfnrf]

I must say that in play, Evard's Black Tentacles was just used to wonderful effect against an 11th level party of PCs in a game I ran.

Note that I interpreted it to grapple once but squeeze every round.

Many creatures have a a good way of bypassing it, but once grappled, most of those ways are unavailable. No spellcasting, for example.

Certainly, it doesn't win a fight on its own. But it is a great option to employ as part of a coherent strategy to control the battlefield.

--
gnfnrf

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

I use it on my warlock primarily for area control. Doesn't work on big things, but the puds will be slowed down.

Plus, nothing says "Hey, guys!" like 10' tall inky black tentacles grabbing you while whispering susurrant passages about the Endless Void. (Which has no mechanical basis, and is more of a flavor thing I put in, but it adds to the creepiness factor in a way that minor cold damage doesn't)

Brad

 

[evilbob]

The spell doesn't say that it hinders ranged attacks or provides cover; thus, it does neither. (Compare with blade barrier, for example.)

That is a very good point and how I was thinking the spell must be interpreted. On the other hand it just doesn't make as much -sense- that way - sort of like how the spell doesn't say it attacks each round, but doesn't make -sense- that it wouldn't. I think RAW this is right, however.

Many creatures have a a good way of bypassing it, but once grappled, most of those ways are unavailable. No spellcasting, for example.

Also a very good point.