How do your rogues get their sneak attacks in?

[Dykstrav]

Just like the title says, how do the rogues in your game go about getting their sneak attack damage?

I've seen a great deal of confusion about flanking at home games and Pathfinder Society games over the past year or so. For whatever reason, there is a perception that "flanking" is a condition that an enemy suffers rather than a bonus type that an attacker gets to their attack roll.

It usually goes a little something like this...

Fighter: "I move into position opposite of the cleric--now we flank the ogre."

GM: "Cool, what's the rogue doing?"

Rogue: "I drop my shortsword and pull out my bow, then shoot the ogre! If a 19 hits, that's 15 points of damage with my sneak attack."

GM: "How are you able to get a sneak attack on it?"

Rogue: "It's flanked."

GM: "Right, the fighter and the cleric flank it--you don't flank it. Flanking isn't a status effect that two attackers impose on a target, it's a circumstantial type of bonus to attack rolls."

Rogue: "What? That's not right, it's right here..." (flipping through book) "Huh. That's not the way that my last GM played it."

GM: "Yeah, that's the way Pathfinder works--sneak attack isn't a carte blanche to gain the damage output of a barbarian at range. It's supposed to represent an underhanded, vital strike, the reason why it's bad for a rogue to catch you unawares. Rogues aren't really designed to stand up to a fighter or barbarian in a straight matchup."

Rogue: "Oh, then my character is useless because I can't gain this circumstantial bonus on every single attack that I make."

Do your players rely on flanking and build their rogues for melee? Do they go for skills, using Bluff or Stealth? Do they ask for invisibility form the sorcerer?

Also... Do you have players that view their sneak attack damage as their "thing?" Do they get upset if they can't gain their sneak attack damage on every single attack that their rogue makes?

 

[Stormonu]

As GM, I use the sneak attack rules as presented in the book (flanking only applies to those in the correct position).

Our rogue player isn't in it for the combat. She plays the rogue for the mischief - picking locks, disarming traps, scouting ahead secretly and misdirecting NPCs. She is hesitant to get into combat, has to be reminded/directed to look for flanking opportunities and often forgets how many sneak attack dice she has to roll (she's been rolling 1d6 for 3 levels now, the group and I kept wondering why her sneak attack was so lousy).

Sneak attack, like all other combat abilities, is only as important as combat is to the group. Most of my group is around for the storytelling bit and though they don't abhor combat (though my wife does absolutely loathe combat and is the group healer), they certainly aren't seeking every niggling bonus they can get. They seem to be more interested in unusual and somewhat whimisical combats than how much DPS they can eke out. (One of our last combats, for example, had the fighter using his sword like a golf club to knock a goblin out of a 2 story tower into the fight below to dismount a goblin riding a dog that was threatening the halfling rogue - he succeeded, and actually knocked the dog rider off the adjacent cliff; a "hole in one", if you will).







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However, your example has made me rethink this to making Flanked a condition. I.e., once at least one individual moves into a flanking position, everybody can get in on the party - after all, once you're flanked, there's someone whom you're going to drop your attention on).

 

[Systole]

Incoming rant from [MENTION=35909]StreamOfTheSky[/MENTION] .

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Incoming rant from [MENTION=35909]StreamOfTheSky[/MENTION] .

Try to win initiative and end the fight on round 1 before the enemy can go so you "always sneak attack."

Flank in melee and probably die.

Beg the arcanist for Greater Invisibility and hope the enemy doesn't have true seeing

Beg the arcanist to use grease and ready a shot against the foe each round on its turn, since PF made it so creatures are only "balancing" on their turn and thus screwing ranged rogues out of a formerly reliably source of full attack SA.

Spend a crapton of feats on the Shatter Defenses line and wait till level 9 for it to all actually come on line (level 7 if you're willing to dip [insert full BAB class 3] instead of single classed rogue), and even then only on things both vulnerable to SA and fear.

Dip Water Mystery Oracle for Water Sight and shoot a bow from the center of Obscuring Mists so you can see just fine but the enemy can't see you at all.

No need for a rant, those are literally like the only ways at all to get sneak attack every round in PF. If the small size of that list and cheese required for some of them doesn't make the point that SA sucks in PF, I don't know what will.

 

[Volaran]

Do your players rely on flanking and build their rogues for melee? Do they go for skills, using Bluff or Stealth? Do they ask for invisibility form the sorcerer?

Also... Do you have players that view their sneak attack damage as their "thing?" Do they get upset if they can't gain their sneak attack damage on every single attack that their rogue makes?

None of the Pathfinder players I've GMed for have built a rogue with combat as their main priority, and I've never had any 'Why can't I sneak attack all the time?' complaints either. They've understood that sneak attack is situational.

As for when they _do_ use sneak attack, it varies. Some have been content to run in when another character in melee already has someone flanked. Others have focused on spring attacking when they can. Still others make use of move/hide tactics with ranged weapons, which means that they're only ever attacking once every few rounds until they can effectively snipe. As you mention, synergy with other party members opens up more options later (invisibility, improved invisibility,).

If your rogue players want to play a rogue-like character that is much more combat focused and just wants to do a lot of damage per round, they may find themselves more satisfied with a ranger, a multi-classed fighter/rogue, or even a straight fighter with some of his extra feats geared to rogue-ish non-combat things.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Rogues in my campaigns are typically there to be, you know, rogues, and not combat machines.

They will often get their sneak attack in on the first round of combat, typically at range. After that they remain mobile - be it a spring attack or a five foot step. Popping off a shot as needed, but not trying to beat the fighters at their own game.

The Auld Grump

 

[Friend of the Dork]

Incoming rant from [MENTION=35909]StreamOfTheSky[/MENTION] .

SNIP!

LOL! You proved his point Stream

Anyway, flanking is the most reliable way to gain sneak attack, so that's what the 10 str Rogue in my game does. That means he is fairly useless sometimes, and he is of course more vulnerable than some, but not quite as useless as our Bard. Invisibility and stealth also helps, but are more circumstantial. And yes, he does rely on SA and will always try to flank if he can. He doesn't outdamage the martial characters, but he does ok.

But anyway the OT has been answered, you cannot sneak attack someone just because they are being flanked by someone else, never has been even since 3rd edition D&D. The player read it wrong.

 

[DragonLancer]

Players in my games tend to go for combat rogues using either rapiers or two-weapon fighting. They expect to get a SA on the first round while the enemy is FF, and then expect the other party members to get into combat so they get the flanking bonuses.

 

[N'raac]

Try to win initiative and end the fight on round 1 before the enemy can go so you "always sneak attack."

Flank in melee and probably die.

Beg the arcanist for Greater Invisibility and hope the enemy doesn't have true seeing

Beg the arcanist to use grease and ready a shot against the foe each round on its turn, since PF made it so creatures are only "balancing" on their turn and thus screwing ranged rogues out of a formerly reliablysource of full attack SA.

No need for a rant, those are literally like the only ways at all to get sneak attack every round in PF. If the small size of that list and cheese required for some of them doesn't make the point that SA sucks in PF, I don't know what will.

First off, I don't expect to get Sneak Attack every round. I do note that it is the rogue's main combat ability, so inflicting significant damage requires Flanking. Maybe I come from a different perspective, but IMO Flanking and other approaches to get Sneak Attack are vastly easier to achieve than Backstabbing prior to 3e.

Why would my melee teammates be opposed to setting up a Flank? They get a bonus to hit, and they enhance - considerably - the team's damage output. Our first 3e game, we didn't analyze the changes, we just played the game. After a few sessions, probably about 5th level, we noticed two thing. First, Sneak Attack was pretty effective, and not hard to set up. Second, the Fighter working his way up to Whirlwind Attack was pretty mobile (so was the Monk), so setting the Rogue up to sneak attack was a very viable combat strategy.

A Summoned Monster is another easy way to help the Rogue flank, but we had no summoner in that game.

"Beg the Arcanist"? Isn't it the spellcaster's job (and the rest of the team's, for that matter) to work to making the team more effective? The Arcanist never has to beg the other PC's in our group to drop everything if he's engaged in melee - he's an eggshell, and we need his spells supporting the melee combatants.

Our Rogue normally fired off an arrow (later a volley) with initiative, then moved in to flank (by which time the Fighter had normally Spring Attacked into a position that facilitated a sneak attack, often with full use of Combat Expertise so he was tough to hit - one attack at full BAB can suck up some hefty penalties and generally hit, and really the point was to get sneak attack damage, not to get one hit by the fighter).

PC teams are powerful because they bring disparate abilities together and generate a whole which is much greater than the sum of its parts.

 

[Epametheus]

In our Kingmaker campaign, our rogue was played by an idiot, but my paladin who had fantastic maneuverability (she had spring attack, she'd dipped 2 levels into bard for Versatile Performer (Dance), and eventually had Wings of Flying) would go through a bit of risk to make sure the rogue got his flanking. Enemies simply died if the rogue got his sneak attack on them.

In Serpent Skull, our team's favored cheesy tactic to give my rogue ranged sneak attack was Tiny Hut, a.k.a. "the Sniper Blind". Yeah, enemies could get around that by just making it into the hut -- but that required actually making it past the frontline. Also, sniper goggles are an amazing item.

Otherwise, my rogue would wade into melee, take the hits, and dish it out. He had started as a melee build (20 pt buy half-orc rogue who started with 16 str, 16 dex, 12 con, 14 int, 10 wis, 8 cha), but shifted over to ranged combat as the campaign wore on. (Yes, his will save was terrible; his terrible will save was a running joke the entire campaign.)

Also, don't knock the "winning initiative and ending the fight on round 1" bit - there were a number of fights where I did just that over the course of the campaign.

Anyways, if you're a rogue in a party where people don't coordinate or work together, your experience will suck. If you're in a party that actually functions as a team, you'll do great.