D&D (2024) How do I disarm traps? Does Thieves' Tools do anything?

[roguish]

In the Tools section, the PHB says that you can disarm a trap using Thieves' Tools with a DC 15 Dexterity check.

Contradicting (?) itself, the PHB also says that a Thief Rogue can, as a bonus action, disarm a trap with a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check using Thieves' Tools. *

Contradicting (?) the PHB, the DMG simply does not mention Thieves' Tools in the Traps section at all. Neither as a general rule (for comparison, the 2014 DMG said you might call for "a Dexterity check using thieves' tools to perform the necessary sabotage"), nor in any of the sample traps. One sample trap can be disarmed with a DC 15 Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check, no tools mentioned. And all the rest are handled narratively once detected, e.g. cut the trip wire (explicitly no ability check required), deface the glyph, or wedge a spike under the pressure plate.

So what's the RAW here? What's the RAI, even?

Are we supposed to handle disarming traps narratively? If yes, WHY does it say that you can roll Thieves' Tools to disarm traps? Are we supposed to roll Thieves' Tools? Then WHY doesn't it mention them in the DMG at all? Are we supposed to do both, or either, or DM's choice? Then WHY doesn't it specify that?

* Important note: the entire Tools section in the PHB lists abilities, not skills, but elsewhere skills ARE specified. E.g. it says that picking locks is a Dexterity check using Thieves' Tools, but if you go to "Lock" in the glossary, it says it's a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check with Thieves' Tools. Musical Instruments is listed as a Charisma check, but I mean, it's a Performance check. So it's possible they meant that using Thieves' Tools is always a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check, and just neglected to write it down anywhere. (sigh)

 

[Ashrym]

Usse Thieves' Tools, add your DEX bonus, add your proficiency bonus if proficient in either Thieves' Tools or Sleight of Hand, and add advantage if proficient in both Thieves's Tools and Sleight of Hand.

That help?

 

[Retros_x]

Are we supposed to handle disarming traps narratively?

Adding to the previous post, I would always allow narrative disarming without a roll and only roll if its a "general disarm" without specification. But if a player states that they use something viable to e.g. wedge a trap door or pressure plate or something that make sense and is easy to do - no roll. You should be able to do that without being an expert in trap disarming.

 

[clearstream]

In the Tools section, the PHB says that you can disarm a trap using Thieves' Tools with a DC 15 Dexterity check.

Contradicting (?) itself, the PHB also says that a Thief Rogue can, as a bonus action, disarm a trap with a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check using Thieves' Tools. *

Contradicting (?) the PHB, the DMG simply does not mention Thieves' Tools in the Traps section at all. Neither as a general rule (for comparison, the 2014 DMG said you might call for "a Dexterity check using thieves' tools to perform the necessary sabotage"), nor in any of the sample traps. One sample trap can be disarmed with a DC 15 Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check, no tools mentioned. And all the rest are handled narratively once detected, e.g. cut the trip wire (explicitly no ability check required), deface the glyph, or wedge a spike under the pressure plate.

So what's the RAW here? What's the RAI, even?

Are we supposed to handle disarming traps narratively? If yes, WHY does it say that you can roll Thieves' Tools to disarm traps? Are we supposed to roll Thieves' Tools? Then WHY doesn't it mention them in the DMG at all? Are we supposed to do both, or either, or DM's choice? Then WHY doesn't it specify that?

* Important note: the entire Tools section in the PHB lists abilities, not skills, but elsewhere skills ARE specified. E.g. it says that picking locks is a Dexterity check using Thieves' Tools, but if you go to "Lock" in the glossary, it says it's a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check with Thieves' Tools. Musical Instruments is listed as a Charisma check, but I mean, it's a Performance check. So it's possible they meant that using Thieves' Tools is always a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check, and just neglected to write it down anywhere. (sigh)

Just to add to @Ashrym's helpful note, the general problem one can identify here is ambiguity over which forms the exception and which the general.

General rules govern each part of the game. For example, the combat rules tell you that melee attacks use Strength and ranged attacks use Dexterity. That’s a general rule, and a general rule is in effect as long as something in the game doesn’t explicitly say otherwise.​

​

The game also includes elements—class features, feats, weapon properties, spells, magic items, monster abilities, and the like—that sometimes contradict a general rule. When an exception and a general rule disagree, the exception wins. For example, if a feature says you can make melee attacks using your Charisma, you can do so, even though that statement disagrees with the general rule.​

To my reading, specific traps in the DMG count among those "elements" listed in the second paragraph and that text (for a specific trap) is less broad than the text for thieves tools (which applies to all traps other than specific traps). One could read the thieves' tools text to be additive, so that players can either take the approach detailed for a specific trap or "Utilize: ...disarm a trap (DC 15)". That doesn't seem right to me, as it would exclude any trap possibly being more difficult than DC 15, and I feel certain a DM ought to be able to meaningfully specify a trap as say DC 25. So it seems to me any specific text detailing a trap ought to follow the Exceptions Supersede General Rules principle.

Cases of exception/general ambiguity are not very common, but they do require DM judgement pursuant to their role of referee.

​

Referee. When it’s not clear what ought to happen next, the DM decides how to apply the rules.​

 

[aco175]

Usse Thieves' Tools, add your DEX bonus, add your proficiency bonus if proficient in either Thieves' Tools or Sleight of Hand, and add advantage if proficient in both Thieves's Tools and Sleight of Hand.

That help?

I'm still a bit confused with the new rules. I do not understand granting advantage in the new rules? Wouldn't you need the tools to be able to open the lock or disarm the trap in first place. Or, are they saying that you can use your dagger and a hairpin to open a lock if you have sleight of hand only and having the tool just makes it so it is near impossible to fail?

I guess I could did a hole in the ground with my hands, but if I have a shovel I cannot fail- seems a bit much. It makes more sense to say you have disadvantage if you do not have the proper tool.

Maybe it is more a game mechanic to pass forward and not fail to open a door. Same with no penalty for failing and you just try again next round?

 

[MarkB]

I'm still a bit confused with the new rules. I do not understand granting advantage in the new rules? Wouldn't you need the tools to be able to open the lock or disarm the trap in first place. Or, are they saying that you can use your dagger and a hairpin to open a lock if you have sleight of hand only and having the tool just makes it so it is near impossible to fail?

I guess I could did a hole in the ground with my hands, but if I have a shovel I cannot fail- seems a bit much. It makes more sense to say you have disadvantage if you do not have the proper tool.

Maybe it is more a game mechanic to pass forward and not fail to open a door. Same with no penalty for failing and you just try again next round?

The rules do seem a bit contradictory, but I think it goes something like this:

If you lack the proper tools for the job, the DM may declare it to not be possible, or to be more difficult and thus impose disadvantage (i.e. you might be able to get away with whittling a sharpened stick using just a dagger instead of woodcarvers' tools, but you can't forge a sword without smiths' tools).

If you have the tools, you can try to do it with a normal check, adding your proficiency bonus if you are proficient with the tools or the relevant skill.

If you have the tools and are proficient with both the tools and the skill you gain advantage.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

As in the older rules, specific traps might need different checks. The obvious one would be Arcana for a magical trap, but you might also ask for an Athletics check if you need to hold something in position whist a wedge is inserted, if the difficult bit is figuring out what needs to be done, an Investigation check, etc.

 

[clearstream]

I'm still a bit confused with the new rules. I do not understand granting advantage in the new rules? Wouldn't you need the tools to be able to open the lock or disarm the trap in first place. Or, are they saying that you can use your dagger and a hairpin to open a lock if you have sleight of hand only and having the tool just makes it so it is near impossible to fail?

A character may need a tool to make a specialized ability check, based on this text

A tool helps you make specialized ability checks, craft certain items, or both.​

​

Proficiency with a tool improves your chances on any ability check you make that uses the tool

If you have proficiency with a tool, add your Proficiency Bonus to any ability check you make that uses the tool. If you have proficiency in a skill that’s used with that check, you have Advantage on the check too.​

So it seems a DM could say that opening a given lock or disarming a given trap requires thieves' tools. Sleight of Hand would be a reasonable skill to apply in some cases, in others maybe a different skill, like Arcana as @Paul Farquhar suggests above. Dexterity (Arcana), possibly (see Skills With Different Abilities.)

I guess I could did a hole in the ground with my hands, but if I have a shovel I cannot fail- seems a bit much. It makes more sense to say you have disadvantage if you do not have the proper tool.

As you suggest, they could say that something like the required tool allows that check, but at disadvantage.

Maybe it is more a game mechanic to pass forward and not fail to open a door. Same with no penalty for failing and you just try again next round?

A check should only be called for when

when a creature attempts something other than an attack that has a chance of meaningful failure. When the outcome is uncertain and narratively interesting, the dice determine the result.​

​

If the task is trivial or impossible, don’t bother with a D20 Test. A character can move across an empty room or drink from a flask without making a Dexterity check, whereas no lucky die roll will allow a character with an ordinary bow to hit the moon with an arrow. Call for a D20 Test only if there’s a chance of both success and failure and if there are meaningful consequences for failure.​

​

When characters have all the time in the world and there's no cost for failure, don't bother calling for a d20 test. When guards are about to arrive, there's a trap to trigger, and so on - meaningful consequences - roll dice.

 

[abirdcall]

If you have both Sleight of Hand and Thieves' Tools proficiencies you get advantage as well as adding your proficiency bonus.

If you only have 1 you get to add your proficiency bonus.

If you don't have either it is just a dexterity check.

Thief Rogues can do it as an action or bonus action. Everyone else must use an action.

As with all things that PCs do; The DM determines if they succeed, fail, or if will need to roll to see what happens. The DM might decide that if it is simple to disarm the trap now that you see the mechanism that you just do it. They might also decide that even if you are good with your hands if you don't have the right tools it will be impossible to disarm this particular trap.

 

[roguish]

Usse Thieves' Tools, add your DEX bonus, add your proficiency bonus if proficient in either Thieves' Tools or Sleight of Hand, and add advantage if proficient in both Thieves's Tools and Sleight of Hand. That help?

My thanks, but to be perfectly honest, it doesn't help much? That just picks one of the two books to go with, and doesn't comment on the discrepancy. If that's what they meant, why doesn't the DMG mention Thieves' Tools at all? And what about the narrative solutions? Do you mean I MUST roll Thieves' Tools, always, and can't narrate that I wedge an iron spike under the pressure plate? What about the trip wire that I can cut, according to the DMG, without an ability check?

And when I roll, is it a flat DC 15 then? For ALL traps, from nuisance to deadly, even those that scale in damage and detect DC? Lock DCs vary from 10 to 20, but all traps were made equal? I'm sorry folks, does that make a lick of sense to you?

To my reading, specific traps in the DMG count among those "elements" listed in the second paragraph and that text (for a specific trap) is less broad than the text for thieves tools (which applies to all traps other than specific traps). One could read the thieves' tools text to be additive, so that players can either take the approach detailed for a specific trap or "Utilize: ...disarm a trap (DC 15)". That doesn't seem right to me, as it would exclude any trap possibly being more difficult than DC 15, and I feel certain a DM ought to be able to meaningfully specify a trap as say DC 25. So it seems to me any specific text detailing a trap ought to follow the Exceptions Supersede General Rules principle.

Thank you, this is one valid reading, and it does make the rules consistent. However, from a game design perspective, I think it's a spectacular failure, and possibly the result of tragic miscommunication between designers.

Imagine a new DM, and a new player who is excited to play a traps specialist. These two have COMPLETELY different information on how disarming traps works. The player, who is not obliged to read the DMG, will naturally think "ah, I'll play a Thief Rogue, so I can get proficiency in Thieves' Tools, and in Sleight of Hand, and Expertise in Sleight of Hand, and I can do it as a bonus action! surely that will make me an expert in the field!". The DM, who is not obliged or expected to homebrew things from scratch on their first time, will naturally think "ah, if I want to put traps in the game, I'll use some of the sample traps in the DMG, good thing they're all detailed!". And the poor Thief, who thought they were making a traps specialist, will discover they didn't, and their chosen skill and expertise don't matter here, and the Thieves' Tools they bought has absolutely nothing to do with ANY of the traps they come across.

I'm still a bit confused with the new rules. I do not understand granting advantage in the new rules? Wouldn't you need the tools to be able to open the lock or disarm the trap in first place. Or, are they saying that you can use your dagger and a hairpin to open a lock if you have sleight of hand only and having the tool just makes it so it is near impossible to fail?

Improvised tools are not covered in the rules (unless I missed something in the DMG), it's up to the DM. It's a bit confusing because Thieves' Tools is both an item, that you may or may not hold, and a Proficiency that you may or may not have. Here's how tools work, they do make sense:

• every time you use a tool, you need to have the tool (the item) on your person, and you roll an ability check (which in some cases is a skill check)
• if you are proficient in the tool and/or the skill, you add your proficiency bonus
• if you are proficient in both the tool and the skill, you add your proficiency bonus once and you roll with advantage
• and if you have expertise in the skill, you add your proficiency bonus twice instead of once
• (you can not take expertise in tools)

As in the older rules, specific traps might need different checks. The obvious one would be Arcana for a magical trap, but you might also ask for an Athletics check if you need to hold something in position whist a wedge is inserted, if the difficult bit is figuring out what needs to be done, an Investigation check, etc.

The 2024 DMG has only one magical sample trap (Fire-Casting Statue), and it allows for both magical and non-magical means of detecting and disarming it. Detect Magic reveals an aura of evocation magic around the statue. A DC 10 Perception check within 5 ft of the statue detects a glyph. Once the glyph is discovered, a DC 15 Arcana check reveals you can disarm the trap by defacing the glyph with a sharp tool. Separately from that, a DC 15 Perception check "if you examine the section of floor that forms the pressure plate" detects the pressure plate, and then you can wedge an iron spike or similar under the plate to prevent the trap from triggering. No check is mentioned or appears to be required. And Thieves' Tools is neither here nor there.