D&D 5E How can warlock patrons teach things they don't know?

[Sword of Spirit]

The stats for Orcus, I assume the elemental princes, and I also assume any future warlock patron type beings, lack warlock abilities. This is not unexpected, considering a desire to simplify monsters.

But that brings up the question in the title. How can a warlock patron teach things they don't know themselves?

I'm sure we can justify it one way or another, but all of those justifications are going to pretty much say that the standard position of patrons teaching you your abilities isn't really what happens.

I can see two ways of handling this.

1. You simply give them the abilities of a 20th level warlock. Done. More work for the DM, but it maintains consistency.
2. You assume that the only real contribution the patron actually gives is to initially impart some mystical warlock-juice into the warlock's soul, and from that point on they are no longer dependent on the patron in any way, but are empowered to acquire magical abilities through their warlock stuff.

I kind of like taking both angles. I've already implemented part 2, and I'm quite likely to implement part 1 also.

In related issues: how about deities? Tiamat doesn't have the abilities of a 20th level cleric. What's her excuse?

 

[Mallus]

I think it works like this:

In combat, an Orcus or a Tiamat chooses to do the stuff in their stat blocks.

Out of combat, they do whatever the Hell(s) the DM finds thematically appropriate.

Put another way, paraphrasing the sage words of the WOPR, the only way to win a simulationist game is not to play!

 

[Minigiant]

I say neither.
I see warlock features as more of a hack on humanoid souls than a learned application. That's why its not Intelligence based but Charisma based.

You are born as or made into a warlock by your patron. As you grow in power, either you or your patron unlocks and melds your power.

Orcus doesn't teach you how to be s demon like you. Your soul is corrupted by him and you are just part demon now.

The Queen of the Winter Court didn't teach you a dang thing. You're just her knight now. She picked you because your smart enough to figure it out.

 

[Sunseeker]

I think it works like this:

In combat, an Orcus or a Tiamat chooses to do the stuff in their stat blocks.

Out of combat, they do whatever the Hell(s) the DM finds thematically appropriate.

Put another way, paraphrasing the sage words of the WOPR, the only way to win a simulationist game is not to play!

Basically I agree with this and is how I run my game. Incredibly ancient, inscrutable, powerful beings know lots of things, including level 0 warlock cantrips, they however tend to choose to do the things we see in their stat blocks.

But I reasonably pair this up with the OP's #2 reasoning.

Your patrons know certain things and that is what they teach you. Beyond that they give you the skills to teach yourself and that's where the rest of your spells and abilities come from.

 

[jrowland]

The key word is Patron.

A "patron of the arts" is not an artist, they provide artists with the means to provide art. In the same way, a warlock patron is not a warlock, they provide the means to be a warlock. Probably best described as raw power.

 

[bganon]

I can train my dog to catch a frisbee in his mouth. This doesn't mean I can do it myself (or want to).

Or I can train my daughter to throw a punch properly... even if she grows physically stronger and more coordinated than me.

Heck, I have enough knowledge of physics that I could teach how to do the relevant calculations to build a gun-type nuclear weapon. Can't say I've built one though.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

The Queen of the Winter Court didn't teach you a dang thing. You're just her knight now. She picked you because your smart enough to figure it out.

And because you were dumb enough to owe her three favors.

Go Team Dresden!

In combat, an Orcus or a Tiamat chooses to do the stuff in their stat blocks.

So you're saying that the MM contains no non-combat stats at all? That would be a depressingly huge oversight which nevertheless explains a lot.

 

[Mallus]

So you're saying that the MM contains no non-combat stats at all? That would be a depressingly huge oversight which nevertheless explains a lot.

If I said that I would have said that.

But, for the record, small stat blocks with a mix of abilities (quality & utility over quantity, please!) and a disclaimer: "MAKE THE REST UP YOURSELF" would suit me fine. If I never see another height-of-3.5 high-level monster stat block again, I'll be a happy DM.

 

[Mephista]

The stats for Orcus, I assume the elemental princes, and I also assume any future warlock patron type beings, lack warlock abilities. This is not unexpected, considering a desire to simplify monsters.

But that brings up the question in the title. How can a warlock patron teach things they don't know themselves?

I'm sure we can justify it one way or another, but all of those justifications are going to pretty much say that the standard position of patrons teaching you your abilities isn't really what happens.

I can see two ways of handling this.

1. You simply give them the abilities of a 20th level warlock. Done. More work for the DM, but it maintains consistency.
2. You assume that the only real contribution the patron actually gives is to initially impart some mystical warlock-juice into the warlock's soul, and from that point on they are no longer dependent on the patron in any way, but are empowered to acquire magical abilities through their warlock stuff.

I kind of like taking both angles. I've already implemented part 2, and I'm quite likely to implement part 1 also.

In related issues: how about deities? Tiamat doesn't have the abilities of a 20th level cleric. What's her excuse?

Well, lets start with the question of how Pact Magic works. Warlocks aren't wizards. Their magic doesn't depend on book knowledge. The magic depends on pacts and having a patron, which could work a lot like paladins and their Oaths derived from the metaphysical words sworn, and not knowledge or godly beings. It could be transformative - the Patron transforms you slowly into part-fiend, part-fey, part-abomination, etc.

Remember - magic is not strictly split into Arcane and Divine anymore. Each class has its own unique power source for its magical powers (except Ranger, who explicitly uses Druid magic).

As for gods? 1) Remember that stat blocks are generalizations for combat, not an exhastive list. 2) Tiamat was severely limited in her manifestation - that was not her full power. 3) Dragon sorcerers get lots of magic, but actual dragons only get a handful of spells as an optional​ rule.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

3) Dragon sorcerers get lots of magic, but actual dragons only get a handful of spells as an optional​ rule.

I've had success with dragons by house-ruling every dragon above wyrmling with at least a few class levels in dragon sorcerer. Not only is it more logical, it also makes them exponentially tougher and more versatile due to things like Counterspell, Shield, blindsight + Darkness, and Quickened Hold Person V.

Having looked at Orcus's stats, I'm quite sure I'd want to do something similar. An Orcus who cannot even scry, or get out of a forcecage, is not an Orcus I respect, even if he does have billions of lich slaves whom I do respect.