D&D 5E How best to help the party: Guidance and Help Others

[Kobold Stew]

For any skill check outside of combat, there are obvious ways that a player can help someone in his party with a skill check.

*. Anyone, regardless of training, can Help if they are within 5 feet (How to Play, p 18). That gives advantage. In play everyone should have someone helping them on any task.

*. a Cleric or Druid can cast the cantrip Guidance, allowing the player to add d4 (Spells, p. 29). That gives an averaged smaller bonus than Helping, but it appears to stack with advantage.

This leads to some conclusions about play style being encouraged ("forced" if you will) in Next:

1. in a party of at least three people, for any out-of-combat skill check (if the Cleric has Guidance, obviously), one player can help the other, and the cleric can guide her. It seems a no-brainer that this should happen all the time, with every check. I'm not saying it's broken, but it does seem to be a play style ("teamwork") that is being heavily pushed by the design.

2. Even if there are just two people, the cleric can achieve this by casting Guidance and then offering his help in the next turn (since Guidance has a fuse).

3. If there isn't time to wait, the cleric should just offer help. Acting on his own, he can do more to help his teammate (on average) than he can by calling on divine support.

4. In some circumstances, Bards can also add a d6 to a skill roll. Does this stack with Guidance? If it does, it does seem broken. If it doesn't, then it seems to be a fairly benign +1 (when compared to the bonus from Guidance, on average) a few times per day. That makes it a pretty unimpressive choice, in a party with a cleric. Either way, it feels fishy to me.

I like conclusion 1, but am unsure about 2, 3, and 4. Thoughts?

 

[Li Shenron]

I hate no-brainer mechanics.

It's understandable when it comes to skills and ability checks i.e. point 1: two people can help each other climbing a mountain, moving a heavy object, opening a lock etc... It simply represents the idea that the more people, the better chance. That could easily cover also hearing and noticing things: even tho you can hardly make someone "hear better", in general 2 listeners is better than one.

But truth is, this is more complicated than the D&D designer can really handle. Because there isn't just a "Help" action that gives you advantage (note: not a bonus), but for a lot of actions, simply multiple PCs can attempt at the same thing, plus each of them maybe can attempt multiple times! So what is the point of even having the Help action (unless it was a bonus which could "enable" you to reach higher DCs) except to the rare occasion in combat or under pressure or when retrying may not be possible?

Guidance instead is a much clearer case: it's a no-brainer, therefore it sucks.

 

[Kobold Stew]

Thanks for answering!

I think we generally agree.

for a lot of actions, simply multiple PCs can attempt at the same thing, plus each of them maybe can attempt multiple times!

This is a good point -- Arguably, the purpose of the "Help" action is to prevent multiple listen checks, etc. But if so, that should be spelled out.

I like the idea of advantage/skills, but I don't think it works out in play.

Guidance instead is a much clearer case: it's a no-brainer, therefore it sucks.

Guidance is a no-brainer, and should be used all the time. Why wouldn't you take +2.5 (avg) on each roll? Rather than remove it, though, they seem to have extended the ability (in a modified form) to the bard as well.

That suggests the designers don't see this as a flaw in the system.

 

[Li Shenron]

Arguably, the purpose of the "Help" action is to prevent multiple listen checks, etc.

In a sense, it's a bit funny because if using "Help" grants advantage, which is rolling twice and get the best result, then it's pretty much the same as the second character rolling its own check

Guidance is a no-brainer, and should be used all the time. Why wouldn't you take +2.5 (avg) on each roll? Rather than remove it, though, they seem to have extended the ability (in a modified form) to the bard as well.

That suggests the designers don't see this as a flaw in the system.

Ok, but the Bard's Inspiration can be used only a few times per day! Perhaps in practical terms, it might end up being that you rarely run out of it, but even in that case for my tastes there's a huge difference with "at-will" as the Guidance cantrip.

If people think it's fine to have +1d4 to every check all the time just by having a Cleric in the party (which I doubt), then I would prefer that to be some sort of permanent aura, rather than having to keep saying "I cast Guidance...".

 

[Kobold Stew]

In a sense, it's a bit funny because if using "Help" grants advantage, which is rolling twice and get the best result, then it's pretty much the same as the second character rolling its own check

This is my point exactly -- it sets a cap on the way a party makes a skill check.

Ok, but the Bard's Inspiration can be used only a few times per day! Perhaps in practical terms, it might end up being that you rarely run out of it, but even in that case for my tastes there's a huge difference with "at-will" as the Guidance cantrip.

If people think it's fine to have +1d4 to every check all the time just by having a Cleric in the party (which I doubt), then I would prefer that to be some sort of permanent aura, rather than having to keep saying "I cast Guidance...".

And yet, there's the cantrip. the only "cost" is that the character must choose this cantrip rather than another. It is a problem.

The limit on the Bard doesn't remove it, it just makes the more powerful ability (d6 not d4) not automatic; thereby introducing stacking questions, etc. It seems broken everywhere, unless the purpose is to require the cleric to cast it all the time, granting the bonus to (typically) every skill check -- thereby pushing a particular type of game play.

 

[Brontoceratops]

The limit on the Bard doesn't remove it, it just makes the more powerful ability (d6 not d4) not automatic; thereby introducing stacking questions, etc.

There's a simple 5E rule about stacking: if it's not the same thing, it stacks.

I fail to see why all the fuss over this minor cleric option: the cleric that chooses to grant this benefit loses another option which may be useful in a different way, and quite possibly might be more fun to play than constantly providing a mechanical buff. If a DM feels this spell grants too great a constant bonus (or if players feel the benefit constrains them from choosing more interesting options), it's not like it's hard for such a DM to say the bonus is +1 rather than +d4.

 

[Li Shenron]

I fail to see why all the fuss over this minor cleric option: the cleric that chooses to grant this benefit loses another option which may be useful in a different way, and quite possibly might be more fun to play than constantly providing a mechanical buff.

It's because once the option is chosen, using it requires an active decision, but such decision is moot (i.e. if you don't use it every time, you're stoopid).

That suggests to me that it shouldn't be an at-will spell, but something always active. If the decision is a no-brainer, why are they even asking me to make such decision every time?

 

[Kobold Stew]

Wow! Your first post, after 8 years of lurking (!?). Welcome to the boards.

There's a simple 5E rule about stacking: if it's not the same thing, it stacks.

I fail to see why all the fuss over this minor cleric option: the cleric that chooses to grant this benefit loses another option which may be useful in a different way, and quite possibly might be more fun to play than constantly providing a mechanical buff. If a DM feels this spell grants too great a constant bonus (or if players feel the benefit constrains them from choosing more interesting options), it's not like it's hard for such a DM to say the bonus is +1 rather than +d4.

Yup, a DM could house rule, or arbitrarily change the DC (that's even in the rules) -- but it shouldn't be necessary. IME, there's very little another character needs to do during a skill check out-of-combat, and for my money,

* a cleric shouldn't be more effective using non-supernatural aid than using supernatural aid;
* together, help another and guidance overcome an entire difficulty class. That's substantial (given bounded accuracy).