D&D 5E [Homebrew] Greater Produce Flame

[ClaytonCross]

So I was Playing as a human druid and found a spell kind of irritating. It seems to counter itself in practice.

Produce Flame
Conjuration cantrip
Casting Time: 1 Action
Range: Self
Components: V, S
Duration: 10 minutes
A flickering flame appears in your hand. The flame remains there for the duration and harms neither you nor your equipment. The flame sheds bright light in a 10-foot radius and dim light for an additional 10 feet. The spell ends if you dismiss it as an action or if you cast it again.
You can also attack with the flame, although doing so ends the spell. When you cast this spell, or as an action on a later turn, you can hurl the flame at a creature within 30 feet of you. Make a ranged spell attack. On a hit, the target takes 1d8 fire damage.

This spell’s damage increases by 1d8 when you reach 5th level (2d8), 11th level (3d8), and 17th level (4d8).

So it seems to me that Fire Bolt is a damage version and this is version is for utility. Kind of a druid version of the light spell with a little damage. I don't mind trading the damage for the light ability ... if it actually works. The problem is that the second you actually run into a problem you ether use it to attack or use your hands for something else ... it puts out the light leaving you and possibly your whole group in darkness just when you need it. Now your blind and in combat or your blind trying to perform what ever two handed task your working on.

My fix for consideration.

Greater Produce Flame
1st-level Conjuration
Casting Time: 1 Action
Range: Self
Components: V, S
Duration: 24 hours
When you cast Produce Flame you may move it into your off hand, top of your staff, the end of your wand, or on the floor between your feet. Moving more than 30 feet away from the flame causes Produce Flame to end. You may as a bonus action to split the flame drawing from its source to an empty hand. As an action on the same or later turn you can hurl the second flame at a creature within 30 feet of you. Make a ranged spell attack. On a hit, the target takes 1d8 fire damage. Additionally, if in your off hand, you may hurl the original flame as a bonus action but doing so ends both spells.

This spell’s damage increases by 1d8 when you reach 5th level (2d8), 11th level (3d8), and 17th level (4d8).

 

[Hawk Diesel]

Well, it seems to me that there is no concentration requirement. Theoretically you can have multiple flames going at once with multiple castings. Cast one to be your torch, and if you run into enemies you could just create/lob new flames created for that purpose.

 

[Quickleaf]

So I was Playing as a human druid and found a spell kind of irritating. It seems to counter itself in practice.

Produce Flame
Conjuration cantrip
Casting Time: 1 Action
Range: Self
Components: V, S
Duration: 10 minutes
A flickering flame appears in your hand. The flame remains there for the duration and harms neither you nor your equipment. The flame sheds bright light in a 10-foot radius and dim light for an additional 10 feet. The spell ends if you dismiss it as an action or if you cast it again.
You can also attack with the flame, although doing so ends the spell. When you cast this spell, or as an action on a later turn, you can hurl the flame at a creature within 30 feet of you. Make a ranged spell attack. On a hit, the target takes 1d8 fire damage.

This spell’s damage increases by 1d8 when you reach 5th level (2d8), 11th level (3d8), and 17th level (4d8).

So it seems to me that Fire Bolt is a damage version and this is version is for utility. Kind of a druid version of the light spell with a little damage. I don't mind trading the damage for the light ability ... if it actually works. The problem is that the second you actually run into a problem you ether use it to attack or use your hands for something else ... it puts out the light leaving you and possibly your whole group in darkness just when you need it. Now your blind and in combat or your blind trying to perform what ever two handed task your working on.

My fix for consideration.

Greater Produce Flame
1st-level Conjuration
Casting Time: 1 Action
Range: Self
Components: V, S
Duration: 24 hours
When you cast Produce Flame you may move it into your off hand, top of your staff, the end of your wand, or on the floor between your feet. Moving more than 30 feet away from the flame causes Produce Flame to end. You may as a bonus action to split the flame drawing from its source to an empty hand. As an action on the same or later turn you can hurl the second flame at a creature within 30 feet of you. Make a ranged spell attack. On a hit, the target takes 1d8 fire damage. Additionally, if in your off hand, you may hurl the original flame as a bonus action but doing so ends both spells.

This spell’s damage increases by 1d8 when you reach 5th level (2d8), 11th level (3d8), and 17th level (4d8).

One thing about 5e is that there are patterns underlying a lot of its design, and spells are no exception.

While we do see 1st-level spells with bonus action Casting Time, we hardly see any 1st-level spells with "as a bonus action" clauses in the spell (exception I can think of are entangle and hex). Of those few 1st-level "as a bonus action" spells, *none* deal damage. At a minimum, the PHB seems to put off dealing damage as a bonus action till 2nd-level spells with heat metal and spiritual weapon (or, as is the case with majority of spells of this kind, till 3rd or 5th).

I'm not sure about balance reasons for setting it up this way, but I can think of a gameplay reason: Simplicity. Not wanting to overload new players with too much too soon.

Maybe the balance thinking has to do with when Multiattack / Extra Attack appear in the game? I'd have to look at that deeper to come to any conclusions. But for now my designer "red bell" is chiming that this might not be balanced & you need to look closer at how it fits into the trends of 5e's design.

Other things that are setting off my "red bell" are:

• 24 hour duration, no concentration – for comparison, a 2nd-level spell like heat metal or spiritual weapon lasts for up to one minute.
• References produce flame. Not self-contained. No other spell does this.
• A "condition" (move it into your hand/implement) that's not really a limit. How often in a 5e game is your hand or implement moved more than 30 feet from you? (if your answer is "more often than you think", I give you my golf clap sir )

 

[ClaytonCross]

One thing about 5e is that there are patterns underlying a lot of its design, and spells are no exception.

While we do see 1st-level spells with bonus action Casting Time, we hardly see any 1st-level spells with "as a bonus action" clauses in the spell (exception I can think of are entangle and hex). Of those few 1st-level "as a bonus action" spells, *none* deal damage. At a minimum, the PHB seems to put off dealing damage as a bonus action till 2nd-level spells with heat metal and spiritual weapon (or, as is the case with majority of spells of this kind, till 3rd or 5th).

I'm not sure about balance reasons for setting it up this way, but I can think of a gameplay reason: Simplicity. Not wanting to overload new players with too much too soon.

Maybe the balance thinking has to do with when Multiattack / Extra Attack appear in the game? I'd have to look at that deeper to come to any conclusions. But for now my designer "red bell" is chiming that this might not be balanced & you need to look closer at how it fits into the trends of 5e's design.

Other things that are setting off my "red bell" are:

• 24 hour duration, no concentration – for comparison, a 2nd-level spell like heat metal or spiritual weapon lasts for up to one minute.
• References produce flame. Not self-contained. No other spell does this.
• A "condition" (move it into your hand/implement) that's not really a limit. How often in a 5e game is your hand or implement moved more than 30 feet from you? (if your answer is "more often than you think", I give you my golf clap sir )

while your not wrong about 1st level spells not usually having "as a bonus action" It is basically a bonus action to load, it still uses and action to attack. So that is hardly a concern, Mechanically it is a gimp. As far as simplicity, Fighters, Monks, Warlocks, and Clerics all get bonus actions at level 1. That is at least half the classes of the top of my head. I don't see this spell as being too complicated for players. The 24 hours is because it requires a spell and a cantrip to work. It makes since that if you add a layer of difficulty you could extend the duration which is the point you make next. I could rewrite it as one spell, but as a first draft I thought requiring a spell and a cantrip made the cantrip slightly more worth holding on to. (Since my original thought was I wish they would fix this cantip.)

@ Hawk Diesel , While I agree with you every DM I have tried to use that under ruled you could only cast it in an empty hand making your suggestion not possible while holding anything. That is why I mention being able to put it on a staff or wand. (Though if they are your focus, it does not impede casting, Just that "A flickering flame appears in your hand" only works if you have a hand free to appear in. Which, while I was disappointed to be fair it does specifically state that. Compare that to light which light which can be cast on a Clerics shield, sword etc.)

 

[Quickleaf]

while your not wrong about 1st level spells not usually having "as a bonus action" It is basically a bonus action to load, it still uses and action to attack. So that is hardly a concern, Mechanically it is a gimp. As far as simplicity, Fighters, Monks, Warlocks, and Clerics all get bonus actions at level 1. That is at least half the classes of the top of my head. I don't see this spell as being too complicated for players. The 24 hours is because it requires a spell and a cantrip to work. It makes since that if you add a layer of difficulty you could extend the duration which is the point you make next. I could rewrite it as one spell, but as a first draft I thought requiring a spell and a cantrip made the cantrip slightly more worth holding on to. (Since my original thought was I wish they would fix this cantip.)

My impression was that dealing damage with a bonus action at 1st-level was limited to Monks, Paladins, Rangers and feats (and I don't think feats should be used as a balance comparison for spells).

What I've notice in my games is that all the bonus action damage stuff at 1st-level is focused on melee attacks.

That just starts to change around 3rd level. Again, IME.

 

[Xeviat]

Produce Flame only deals -1 damage per dice than Fire Bolt. It also doubles as a light spell. Druids have limited cantrip options, so I haven't had an issue with it. You can use an action to cast and throw it at the same time. A wizard would have had to buy two cantrips to see in the dark and attack, you only need one (and you aren't a light source for your enemies to see when it's not your turn; but I hope your allies have darkvision).


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[Satyrn]

I gotta say, all you seem to have done is create a spell that could be called Produce Torchlight, and has a weird side effect of making the produce flame cantrip more awkward to use (adding in having to use a bonus action).

If you want a spell to light your way, why not just recreate the light cantrip?

 

[ClaytonCross]

My impression was that dealing damage with a bonus action at 1st-level was limited to Monks, Paladins, Rangers and feats (and I don't think feats should be used as a balance comparison for spells).

What I've notice in my games is that all the bonus action damage stuff at 1st-level is focused on melee attacks.

That just starts to change around 3rd level. Again, IME.

War Clarics can attack a second time as a bonus action
Fighters don't get an attack until level 2, but they do get a bonus action heal
Warlocks cast Hex as a bonus action, which adds a 1d6 of damage to there action attack on the same turn which is as much damage as a short sword strike.
Druids, use Shillelagh as a bonus action to increase damage.
Any 2 handed finesse fighter can use and off hand weapon and that is not a feat.

All healers (Druid, Cleric, and Bard) all use healing word as a bonus action

Bards, give inspiration as a bonus action

If you add this to your list of Monks, Paladins, Rangers, and Feats your not leave many who don't have many classes that don't have bonus actions. Again this is off the top of my head not a full list. I don't think avoiding bonus actions to reduce complication at a lower level is a valid argument. Though some of your other points make more ground.

 

[ClaytonCross]

Produce Flame only deals -1 damage per dice than Fire Bolt. It also doubles as a light spell. Druids have limited cantrip options, so I haven't had an issue with it. You can use an action to cast and throw it at the same time. A wizard would have had to buy two cantrips to see in the dark and attack, you only need one (and you aren't a light source for your enemies to see when it's not your turn; but I hope your allies have darkvision).


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Your last line, is really my whole problem. D&D is a group game not a solo one. With that in mind, If I am providing light for the Fighter then dowsing it when it is not his turn it is my fault he is blind. As a point of note if I am in a cave and the whole party has dark vision they are all still blind. Darkvision is low light vision in 5e (So if I was the only light Darkvision provides nothing). Only Warlocks with Devil's Sight or characters with Blind fighting have true Dark vision now.

 

[Xeviat]

I think you're misunderstanding darkvision. Darkvision turns natural darkness into black and white dim light within the specified range. Low-light vision would extend the range of light sources.

The druid is not the fighter's light source. If the group needs absolutely only one light source that comes and goes, then they can ready actions to attack when you activate your produce flame.