Hold Person vs. Blindness/Deafness vs. Suggestion

[Guest 6801328]

My Divine Soul Sorcerer is soon going to get a 2nd level spell, and I want an offensive-disabling spell that can be Twinned. These are the three I'm considering:

Hold Person - Wisdom save
Pros: Prevents target from attacking AND gives attackers great bonuses, Wisdom save is decent
Cons: Save every turn, Concentration, only works on Humanoids.

Blindness/Deafness - Con save
Pros: Single save, no Concentration, gives Attackers bonuses, (EDIT save every turn
Cons: High value targets often have high Con; doesn't prevent target from attacking

Suggestion - Wisdom save
Pros: Single save, long duration, non-combat utility, creative options possible
Cons: Concentration, can't attack target without breaking spell, requires intelligence & shared language

Note that single-save is especially valuable in this case because of Heightened Spell (that is, I can impose Disadvantage on the first save.)

At most I'll take two of these. Which would you take first and second?

 

[iserith]

If the campaign is mostly centered around humanoids as antagonists, then I'd take Hold Person. If not, or if it's an even mix, I'd probably go Blindness/Deafness instead.

 

[Dausuul]

My Divine Soul Sorcerer is soon going to get a 2nd level spell, and I want an offensive-disabling spell that can be Twinned. These are the three I'm considering:

Hold Person - Wisdom save
Pros: Prevents target from attacking AND gives attackers great bonuses, Wisdom save is decent
Cons: Save every turn, Concentration, only works on Humanoids.

Blindness/Deafness - Con save
Pros: Single save, no Concentration, gives Attackers bonuses
Cons: High value targets often have high Con; doesn't prevent target from attacking

Suggestion - Wisdom save
Pros: Single save, long duration, non-combat utility, creative options possible
Cons: Concentration, can't attack target without breaking spell, requires intelligence & shared language

Note that single-save is especially valuable in this case because of Heightened Spell (that is, I can impose Disadvantage on the first save.)

At most I'll take two of these. Which would you take first and second?

Suggestion is just an all-star spell. There are so many ways you can use it to bypass or trivialize enemies. This would be absolutely my first pick of those three.

Blindness/deafness is not a great primary attack spell (it targets Con and grants a save every round), and I probably wouldn't take it right away. At higher levels, however, it's an amazing "sidearm" spell: A potent low-level debuff that doesn't require concentration. Cast a powerful concentration spell on round 1, and then start tossing off blindness/deafness on subsequent rounds.

Hold person looks incredible on paper, but the target restriction is absolutely crippling. You're a sorcerer, you don't have room for niche options.

Another spell to consider is phantasmal force. This spell is heavily dependent on DM interpretation, but even a restrictive DM will probably accept that "your head is encased in a red-hot adamantine globe" should impose blindness and fire damage. Then the enemy has to choose between wasting actions on Investigation checks, or accepting "blind and taking 1d6/round" for the rest of the fight.

 

[Satyrn]

1) These are not the droids you are looking for.

2) What droids? Where? I can't see anything!

 

[Guest 6801328]

If the campaign is mostly centered around humanoids as antagonists, then I'd take Hold Person. If not, or if it's an even mix, I'd probably go Blindness/Deafness instead.

Alas, I don't know the answer to that. Which I suppose should lead to the same conclusion as "not humanoids" would.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Another spell to consider is phantasmal force. This spell is heavily dependent on DM interpretation, but even a restrictive DM will probably accept that "your head is encased in a red-hot adamantine globe" should impose blindness and fire damage. Then the enemy has to choose between wasting actions on Investigation checks, or accepting "blind and taking 1d6/round" for the rest of the fight.

Oh, that is a good option. It doesn't fit terribly well with the overall character concept, but maybe that can be mitigated by choosing appropriate phantasms.

 

[MonkeezOnFire]

On my wizard I picked up Blindness/Deafness as something to throw out after having a concentration spell up (typically some aoe control like Web or Hypnotic Pattern). I'll tell you right now that it's not a big gun like the other two in your list and it won't be turning around entire combat encounters as often. It will usually only skip the target's turn for a round or two at most and that's if it sticks in the first place. But as non-concentration spells are so rare I find it's useful to keep around at higher levels. Especially since it will benefit from your higher save DC and can scale nicely with spell level once you get to the point where even 3rd level spell slots are frivolous. All that being said, I did often feel it was just more useful to go blaster after getting my concentration spell up as the campaign I was playing in (Out of the Abyss) featured a lot of monsters with one or more of high Con, non-reliance on sight, or having blanket magic resistance. So it is campaign dependent and if you plan to spend a lot of time in the Underdark probably skip it.

Between the other two it's a matter of campaign and personal choice. I like Suggestion for it's use in social encounters as well as combat. Sure, it might have heavy consequences later but sometimes it's warranted. It can also be used on a wider range of creature types. There are still a lot of creature types other than humanoids that understand language like fey, fiends, and intelligent undead. But Hold Person is one of those spells that is amazing when it comes up and is one of those spells that can turn everything around, it's just that good.

I prefer being versatile, but that's my personal opinion. You'll have to decide for yourself if you're okay with one of your spell choices being irrelevant sometimes. Especially as a sorcerer your choices are a bit limited.

 

[iserith]

Alas, I don't know the answer to that. Which I suppose should lead to the same conclusion as "not humanoids" would.

You might be able to tease that info out of the DM. If not, I think the safe answer is Blindness/Deafness. With suggestion, it's somewhat on par with an illusion spell in my view - reliable only to the extent the DM is somewhat generous with interpretations. As DM, I tend to be pretty supportive of suggestion, but I am a bastard when it comes to languages (almost no monsters speak Common) and suggestion requires that the target understand you.

 

[5ekyu]

My Divine Soul Sorcerer is soon going to get a 2nd level spell, and I want an offensive-disabling spell that can be Twinned. These are the three I'm considering:

Hold Person - Wisdom save
Pros: Prevents target from attacking AND gives attackers great bonuses, Wisdom save is decent
Cons: Save every turn, Concentration, only works on Humanoids.

Blindness/Deafness - Con save
Pros: Single save, no Concentration, gives Attackers bonuses, (EDIT save every turn
Cons: High value targets often have high Con; doesn't prevent target from attacking

Suggestion - Wisdom save
Pros: Single save, long duration, non-combat utility, creative options possible
Cons: Concentration, can't attack target without breaking spell, requires intelligence & shared language

Note that single-save is especially valuable in this case because of Heightened Spell (that is, I can impose Disadvantage on the first save.)

At most I'll take two of these. Which would you take first and second?

It varies by the campaign.

In my current campaign we have barely been able to speak with a single enemy we fought - language hassles each time -

suggestion is a big problem. How common is "common" in your game plays a major role in this spell utility.
its added non-combat effects tho add quite a bit. Combat not as helpful depending on various things due to the attacks thing.

hold person - humanoids - limiting but workable. doesn't give saves for damage. huge combat gaisn from crits and failed saves. Again the number and frequency of humanoids affects this a great deal

Blindness - pretty straight up obvious and saves each round. Much less subject to "your campaign is like..." influence than either of the others.

**IMO** if you do not know the answers to the questions about suggestion and hold person, blindness/deafness would be my go-to. it is less setting dependent. it is the best "picking in a vacuum" answer i can give.

if you do know the answers to the questions about suggestion and hold person, choose appropriately if those answers show you one of them is better than Blindness.

However, another case can be made for one other factor - the allies.

if your party already includes a cleric who has hold person and blindness on his cleric big spell list - maybe suggestion is a choice to make because it adds something unique to your toolbox.

if you already have a cleric and a charmer bard, maybe another option than these is worth considering.

i tend to not value spell choices as high if they are already easily on hand in the group of adventurers

So, again, nothing really useful for deciding in a vacuum
.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Thanks for the feedback, all.

The reason I don't have more details on the campaign is that this character gets used for random AL adventures that people in my group take turns DMing. So it won't be a single story arc.

I think I'm leaning toward Suggestion because it will be the most fun, even if sometimes it's useless. Twinned will be really fun: suggesting to two allies that they are each others' worst enemy.

There's always Sacred Flame, right?