Hold Person - Two Saving throws per round?!

[ReeboKesh]

This came up in the weekends game:-

1st round of combat-
Evil Cleric wins initiative and casts Hold Person on fighter. Fighter fails saving throw and his held.
On the fighter's turn (note: in the same round) does he get to make another saving throw to break the hold person?

It's been a while since we played so we looked up the spell. The wording would suggest that the victim of the hold person would get another saving throw in the same round that they failed the saving throw when the spell was cast. Is this correct?

Also is this the only spell that possibly allows two saves per round ?(one when cast and then a second on the target's turn).
Thanks
Reebo

 

[frankthedm]

The wording would suggest that the victim of the hold person would get another saving throw in the same round that they failed the saving throw when the spell was cast. Is this correct?

Sadly yes.
Wotc Tried to find a way to make a 2nd level take you out of combat and make you helpless spell "balanced".

The Best way a cleric can make use of this spell is to wield a scythe and say...

I ready a hold person spell for when someone is about to attack me.

When the ready triggers, cast the spell defensively and if it works, you adjust 5 feet into their square, so the victim’s allies can not. The victim now loses whatever turn they had remaining and they can’t try to break the hold person [that is a full round action]. Since the victim triggered your ready, you will act before he does next. On that turn, take the CDG action to end the held person’s life before they have a chance to make another save. If that victim’s allies approach and are adjacent, adjust to a square that the victim’s allies do not threaten so the CDG can be done safely.

This little gem was from the same player that brought the idea into my group to sunder divine foci.

 

[Artoomis]

...This little gem was from the same player that brought the idea into my group to sunder divine foci.

Yes, and sundering the spell component pouch is also great.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

How do you "adjust" into the victim's square? Don't you have to do that as part of a grapple?

 

[Artoomis]

How do you "adjust" into the victim's square? Don't you have to do that as part of a grapple?

Not. Not when the "victim" is held.

Help = Paralyzed = Helpless

"You can’t move through a square occupied by an opponent, unless the opponent is helpless."

"You can’t end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless."

 

[frankthedm]

Yes, and sundering the spell component pouch is also great.

From the way the 3e concept art looked, wizards wore extra Spell Component Pouches for good reason.

She has at least 3 pouches for example.
http://www.toddlockwood.com/galleries/concept/01/wizard_female.shtml

 

[Artoomis]

From the way the 3e concept art looked, wizards wore extra Spell Component Pouches for good reason.

She has at least 3 pouches for example.
http://www.toddlockwood.com/galleries/concept/01/wizard_female.shtml

A Spell Component Pouch wieghs 2 pounds. Those look too small for that, though the shoulder bag looks about right to me.

Given the critical nature of that item, better rules around it would have been nice.

 

[ReeboKesh]

OK that's cool. I thought they nerfed it enough with the save per round. Thanks dude!
Reebo

 

[Thurbane]

They should have just bumped it up a level or whatever instead of nerfing it this way. The reason it was a 2nd level Cleric spell in older editions was because Clerics spell's only went up to level 7, and because they didn't have much in the way of offensive spells either. Come to think of it, HP used to affect mutiple targets. Man, it got nerfed, and then some...

This is another case of where I wouldn't let the RAW get in the way of common sense in my own game - if someone fails a save vs. HP, I would rule that means they are held for at least the remainder of the current round, and get another save after on their turn after that.

But if you are looking for a strictly RAW definition, yes, they would get two saves in the same round if their initiative is after the HP caster's...

On a related note, why on Earth would any Wizard or Sorceror bother learning this as a 3rd level spell? I'd just take Slow and be done with it.

 

[Dracorat]

I don't consider it to be an oversight. If the cleric casting the spell gets it off successfully and the fighter immediately is able to make a save on his own turn, he still loses all ability to do anything other than a five foot step or free action on his turn, so the original casting cleric still took him down for a round, effectively.

Plus, the spell effect ends X turns after it was cast, which if the fighter hasn't saved properly in that time means the fighter will have lost the appropriate number of rounds of combat being helpless according to the duration of the spell.