"Hold Person", Paralyzed, Prone?

[evilishmael]

Hi all,

So I am a new DM and I have a couple of questions about paralysis and falling prone.

The Rules define Paralyzed as...

"Frozen in place and unable to move or act, such as by the hold person spell. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimmer can't swim and may drown. A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature -- ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares." (PHB 3.5 Glossary Pg. 311)

It then says about Ability Damage...

"A temporary loss of 1 or more ability score points. Lost points return at a rate of 1 point per day unless noted otherwise by the condition dealing the damage. A character with Strength 0 falls to the ground and is helpless. A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed. A character with Constitution 0 is dead. A character with Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma 0 is unconscious."

The spell Hold Person describes itself as...

Hold Person

Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]

Level:Brd 2, Clr 2, Sor/Wiz 3
Components:V, S, F/DF
Casting Time:1 standard action
Range:Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target:One humanoid creature
Duration:1 round/level (D); see text
Saving Throw:Will negates; see text
Spell Resistance:Yes


The subject becomesparalyzed and freezes in place. It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speech. Each round on its turn, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect. (This is a full-round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.)
A winged creature who is paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A swimmer can’t swim and may drown.
Arcane Focus

A small, straight piece of iron.



----

Now my question is... I've always seen Hold Person described as the creature just standing there frozen in place. However, hold person says the subject becomes PARALYZED, which by the rules it seems that a creature under the effect of this spell would not only stand in place (Effective Dexterity 0) but would also collapse prone to the ground (Effective Strength 0)

That being the case, would you adjudicate that the subject of a "hold" spell, such as Hold person, hold monster, hold animal... would not only freeze in place but would crumple to the ground, falling prone.

To me this seems to make sesne. If the effect of paralysis only affected dex I would say no. But it also affects strength, which would imply that the creature can not stay standing, because it has no strength to do so.

Also Note, that under abilioty damage it says " A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed."... yet they define paralyzed as "A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless,"... so does that mean that if your dex drops to 0 you become "paralyzed" and your strength immediately falls to 0?

I don't think so. I think instead of the word paralyzed it should have said... "A character with dexterity 0 is "frozen in place".

Any comments?

 

[evilishmael]

hmm, I just realized something... if "Frozen in place" means just a dex score of 0, without the accompanying strength score of 0...

Then hold person could ALSO be read as affecting ONLY one's dex score.

The spell specifically says... paralyzed and freezes in place...

so which is it... DM call? Traditionally, I've seen this treated as the person is standing there frozen in place.

Any thoughts?

 

[Vegepygmy]

That being the case, would you adjudicate that the subject of a "hold" spell, such as Hold person, hold monster, hold animal... would not only freeze in place but would crumple to the ground, falling prone.

No, for two reasons: (1) the specific spell text, "freezes in place," trumps the general rule that Str 0 causes one to fall prone; and (2) "effective" Str 0 is not the same as actual Str 0.

#2 is admittedly pretty weak sauce, but #1 is pretty solid.

 

[NewJeffCT]

The specific rule of the hold person spell overrules the more general rule of being helpless and having been subjected to ability damage. Plus, the hold person spell does not damage ability, it just gives you an effective score of zero while held. If you free yourself via save or dispel magic, you're back to your normal STR and DEX instantly.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I don't see an FAQ on this, but I'd say Hold effects leave the target standing. I actually think reasoning #1 above (specific spell text) is stronger.

 

[Runestar]

Hold person is a compulsion (so you are effectively "ordering" the person to stand still, and him literally obeying you), rather than some jedi force grip effect.

In theory, if you cast this at a person while he is in the middle of some precarious situation (like balancing on one toe), he should fall flat on his face.

But for ease of play, I guess we just assume that the target remains standing.

 

[evilishmael]

Ok,

I tend to agree, for hold person...

What about all other paralyzing effects... like say from a monster's spell-like ability? Or Gaze?

 

[Vegepygmy]

I would say a paralyzed creature normally falls prone.

 

[pawsplay]

In movies, spells usually freeze someone in place rather than cause them to slump into an immobile pile, so I would tend to prefer rulings that favor rigid paralysis.