High fantasy and gunpowder, with a twist: How would such a world look like?

[Jackcarter]

Let's take a stereotypical high fantasy, for this purpose the Forgotten Realms will suit fine, and examine what a wide adoption of firearms will do to such a society. With a twist, of course. It doesn't matter what high fantasy, but FR will do since I would presume that more people on this board are familiar with it than any other high fantasy setting. For those unfamiliar with FR, it is a setting where magic, arcane and divine, dominates completely, and powerful (20+ level) mages are more plentiful than fish in the sea. Low-level magic items, including offensive ones like wands of fireball or potions of fire breath, are mass-produced very much like the 15th century Venetians did in glassblowing.

In the default Realms, firearms are mostly relegated to a tiny isle and pretty rare elsewhere. Furthermore, that isle, Lantan, is secretive about its guns and takes measures to protect its secret, with the entire deific pantheon of the setting cooperating to various degrees in that indeavor (I think...). Last, gunpowder itself is an expensive alchemical, pseudo-magical substance.

Now, let's say that gunpowder suddenly became chemical/non-magical substance, and that its manufacturing process became widely known, while gods became mostly neutral about its dissemination. Let's say that a merchant got a book on gunpowder from Far East (as in RL history) or that a spelljammer crashed with gunsmiths. Whatever the cause, within 20 years, everyone knew how to make gunpowder (once again similar to RL history).

Here's the catch. Whenever used by people with innate spellcasting abilities or Spell-like abilities, the chances of firearms misfire greatly rise. Let's say, something like 70% chance of exploding in your face and causing damage. This would make firearm's use among mages, clerics, paladins, assassins, and others extremely hazardous. In fact, among mages and clerics, with offensive spells within easy reach, firearms wouldn't be much useful even without the misfire chance.

However, if the prices of firearms drop to the RL 16th century level, i.e., about 1/5 the cost of a crossbow or 1/2 of a longbow or recursive bow and the price of gunpowder negligible (under 1 gp), how would this change the face of the Realms, or any other high fantasy setting?

According to the DMG, a pistol does 1d10/x3 while a musket does 1d12/x3 damage. Not only that, let's say that it only requires a Simple Weapon proficiency to know how to use them (a RL equivalency to high easy it was to learn to use them vis-a-vis bows or x-bows). If these kinds of damage become cheap to produce (say, 10 gp for a musket) and easy to use, how should a high fantasy or the Realms change?

For example, there is a stereotypical evil wizard nation bent on world domination (the Red Wizards), which is feared throughout the world for its magical prowess. However, if its neighbors possess large armies equipped with firearms, would it be as feared? Protection from Arrows is a decent protection, but against a volley of gunfire, it wouldn't last a minute. The key here is the cheap cost, as well as the high damage. An army that could previously field 5000 x-bowmen can now field 25000 musketeers at the same price! Combine that with high damage die and faster reloading time, standard v. full-round, the actual combat capacity becomes much greater than the sheer number.

If the evil wizards equipped their armies with guns, then it would return to the pre-gunpowder power balance. However, can the evil wizards (Red Wizards) trust their fighters enough to equip them en masse with such dangerous weapons--weapons they themselves can't use?

Possibilities are endless, but I'd like to hear what you have to say, so I'll stop here.

 

[Humanophile]

I was actually considering the same thing, except tweaking the stats a little (simple weapons anyone can use, 19-20/X3 critical, only requires a RTA, and maybe reduce the damage die a step if needed to balance things [and before you say "hell yeah it'd be unbalanced", keep in mind that firearms can only fire once every other round, cost a pile of money, and are a lot more care. The people most likely to afford them are high-mid level characters who either have spells, items, or multiple attacks they can use instead.]) I kinda like this, since while high level characters are pretty much proof against a lone assassin's bullet, massed gunfire gives everyone something to worry about.

In your game, I think guns would be considered trivialties. They'd probably be the weapon of the common man, but their instability in the hands of magic users and low ROF would render them unsuitable for "true professionals". Heavy crossbows would be out of style, nothing else would really change.

 

[Black Omega]

Let's take a stereotypical high fantasy, for this purpose the Forgotten Realms will suit fine, and examine what a wide adoption of firearms will do to such a society.

For a largescale view of this sort of thing, not just guns and gunpowder for technology over all, try to search up stuff from Edena's old IR threads. Many assumptions about technology are made that go way beyond what you are talking about, but the basics are there.

Here's the catch. Whenever used by people with innate spellcasting abilities or Spell-like abilities, the chances of firearms misfire greatly rise. Let's say, something like 70% chance of exploding in your face and causing damage. This would make firearm's use among mages, clerics, paladins, assassins, and others extremely hazardous. In fact, among mages and clerics, with offensive spells within easy reach, firearms wouldn't be much useful even without the misfire chance.

This is the main point. Adding that makes little differents, wizards will get far more out of their spells and items then they ever would out of the guns. It's not much of a limitation.

According to the DMG, a pistol does 1d10/x3 while a musket does 1d12/x3 damage. Not only that, let's say that it only requires a Simple Weapon proficiency to know how to use them (a RL equivalency to high easy it was to learn to use them vis-a-vis bows or x-bows).

Technically, the advantage of the crossbow was the same as the firearm. Ease of use. firearms just became better than x-bows past a point.

For example, there is a stereotypical evil wizard nation bent on world domination (the Red Wizards), which is feared throughout the world for its magical prowess. However, if its neighbors possess large armies equipped with firearms, would it be as feared?

Yep.

Protection from Arrows is a decent protection, but against a volley of gunfire, it wouldn't last a minute. The key here is the cheap cost, as well as the high damage. An army that could previously field 5000 x-bowmen can now field 25000 musketeers at the same price!

It doesn't follow, however, that they have the manpower to field 25,000. Firearms would be an advantage to races that rely on sheer raw numbers, but only to a point.

Combine that with high damage die and faster reloading time, standard v. full-round, the actual combat capacity becomes much greater than the sheer number.

Firearms are a standard action to reload, as are crossbows. Other bows reload even faster.

If the evil wizards equipped their armies with guns, then it would return to the pre-gunpowder power balance. However, can the evil wizards (Red Wizards) trust their fighters enough to equip them en masse with such dangerous weapons--weapons they themselves can't use?

The Red Wizards don't need to use guns. They can take out whole armies on their own just using the right spells. For the technocracy to gain the upper hand they need more than firearms, they need other higher tech that can counter various magical effects and the assumption that magical things like +3 bullets can be mass produced, preferably economically.

 

[Ace]

I went through coniptions to make a gunpowder varient for my world.
Heres what I got in now special order.

1- Armor goes bye bye, only leather, studded (in DND only) and breastplate. Guns once they become perfected will penetrate any armor that is reasonable to wear

2- Guns should be a seperate proficiency, they are simple to use but reloading ahh that requires a bit of skill

3- The reload rate of these weapons is horrible.
A smoothbore takes about 4 rounds (3 if you have a feat)
A Rifle takes about 6 (5 if you have a feat)

$ Damage isn't that much higher than an ordinary weapon but there are a couple of differences 1-they should have a penetration value or ignore armor entirely 2- they can inflict nasty wound with a good shot

My Damage figures
Belt Pistol 1d8 , 18-20cr x3
Horse pistol ( a magnum flintlock) 1d10 " "
Fusil (a short rifle or carbine) 2d6
Musket 2d8
Blunderbuss 2d6 armor will work but it easier to load (-1 round)

ranges will longer on a rifle than a musket.

If you don't use armor I recomend using defense, use the bonus structure from Star Wars or Wheel Of Time. I also suggest giving the best defense to fighters (no armor remember)

Effects on The World.

On the Macro Level, they won't force any changes in castle design. Heavy spells are about equal to cannon
Double an armys punch more or less this means more casultys and possibly conscript armys and all the revolutionaryy era stuff that went on in our world.

Artillery with a good crew and spelled cannon balls will makeshort work out of even a Dragon so monsters get less scary.
Cannons are vulnerable to fireballs but thats what counter magic is for.
I suspect Artillery crews will have a wizard (low level) or multi class in the crew with a dispelling wand ready.

, Cheap explosives even low explosives like blackpowder can be used by anyone. That means deeper mines, land clearing and other feats of engineering become available to the common man.
This will reduce the value of "Blasting and Engineering" type spells but not the subtle stuff


Hope these help

 

[Black Omega]

1- Armor goes bye bye, only leather, studded (in DND only) and breastplate. Guns once they become perfected will penetrate any armor that is reasonable to wear

So is even magic armor useless or is it more like a ranged touch attack?

Artillery with a good crew and spelled cannon balls will makeshort work out of even a Dragon so monsters get less scary.

Speaking out in favor of dragons, I kinda doubt this. Unless it's a young, stupid dragon. Cannons are slow to aim and not terribly accurate. Dragons are very bright, have a number of special abilities and often spells. Certainly if the cannon hits, it would hurt them, but there is so much the dragon can do to avoid that. And the cannons would be very vulnerable.

Cannons are vulnerable to fireballs but thats what counter magic is for.
I suspect Artillery crews will have a wizard (low level) or multi class in the crew with a dispelling wand ready.

Those dispelling checks can get bad though.

 

[Synicism]

Problem with guns in D&D (any world).

They suck.

OK, your average Sniper Rifle does 1d12 damage. A 5th level fighter with a +2 Con modifier has an average of 42 hit points.

So that means it takes an average of four shots to drop him, which is pathetic. These are high caliber, high precision weapons capable of shooting through inch thick steel plates.

D&D still relies on an abstract combat system, where "armor class" represents dodging and stuff. Doesn't work well with modern weapons.

So what happens when your evil spellcasters face an army of guys with musketry?

Simple. They find a guy who can cast firestorm and your entire gun toting army expires like a string of fireworks. In the Realms, where 15th level characters are a dime a dozen, that's not all that hard to imagine.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

The big advantage with guns is not their superiority to the longbow (which didn't happen until the late 19th century) but their ease of use. It takes years to get good with a longbow, you can be kinda-good with a gun in matter of months.

If you put guns in, make them a simple weapon and give them to commoners. Of course, the second a wizard casts "protection from normal missiles" the big advatage goes away.

 

[Sammael99]

Very interesting discussion...

My knowledge of the historical emergence of gunpowder and related weapons is vague but I seem to remember that :

they essentially made armor obsolete (or rather they made it shift from efficient (dark ages) to pretty (renaissance)
they didn't kill as much as they maimed. I remember reading this in a French Pirate RPG where they said that early guns were a lot less deadly than swords, but they changed combats because a lot of those involved in the fights went down in the first few seconds.

So that would mean essentially that early guns wouldn't affect a high magic campaign much : magic would still be a lot more powerful and guns can't realistically be cheap to build, so massive amounts of guns aren't realistic before industrialization...

In my campaign, I plan to have guns do a little more damage but have a lot higher criticals, like 19-20/x5 but they will be a technology mastered by gnomes and impossible to replicate. Only a few will be in circulation. Basically they'll just be for flavour, except during one major show down between the evil devil-worshipping nation and the PCs kingdom of adoption, in which they will enroll the help of a gnome army on hot air balloons with guns.

 

[Ace]

i

[]Originally posted by Black Omega [/i]

. [ So is even magic armor useless or is it more like a ranged touch attack?
/QUOTE]

I figure that magic armor does protect like a ranged touch attack But let's say your armor is normally AC +8 : +2 Banded or something. The pistol reduces non magic AC by 5

Are you going to keep wearing it if it gives you no more than AC+3 against likely threats? No way.
You would be better served with +2 Stuudded leather. Light Comfortable and almost as protective +5 VS Meele +2 VS Missle vs +8 Meele +3 Vs Missle.


As too the issue of Dragons, I wasn't refering to some Napoleonic cannon formation.

There are many ingenious ways to use cannon..

Frex
Hide them with magic in a sheep field. Dragon swoops down to eat. Blammmo 20 rounds hit him.

Weld two together and put them on an iron golem for a hellish first punch.. Can you say Mecha?

Mount them on a fortress. In addition to the fireballs and other zappy spells he is facing he has to deal with cannons.
A magic cannon ball could be made easily enough. Have a few in the armoury for special occasions. Look Cannon Balls of +2 Icy Burst Red Dragon Slaying . The ROF of a cannon is slow, so True strike really rocks with them.

Or just use gunpowder to seal the dragon in its lair. Two mages, A cleric, A ranger, A rogue and two tons of powder.

We aren't going in that hellish keep. We will seal the entances with rock and magic.


That sort of thing. Gunpowder, even in a high magic world, would bring power the common man.

 

[herald]

Guns are a sore spot with most D&D games. Here is something to consider.

1) Guns didn't eliminate armor instantaniously. For some reason, many people assume that the velosity of bullets has been a constant through out the years, which isn't the case.

2) Shield are generally useless against bullets, but concevably it could be expected that a magical shield, with the right enchantments might work.

3) Not all armor is created equal. Steel breastplates where sold in the late mid to late reniassance with a bullet test. Master craftsmant would actually shoot a bullet at the armor to chow how damage resistant it was. Usually you could see that the bullet had creased the armor, but not to signifigantly pierce the breastplates. Sometimes this test was conducted right infront of the client to be beyond question.

4) Canons are what really make a differance.

To understand how a game world might be if gun powder was used by everyday people you would have to take into consideration how the societies would view it's usefulness.

Societies like the Red Wizards are not likely to let gun powder into it's armies use for the simple fact that control over the masses that would have it might shift. But they would develop stratagies to work around it.

So let's see how two armies might stack up.

Lets take 50 1st level warriors with matchlock muskets (team A) against say a 10th level wizard and 20 1st level warriors (Team B)with longbows.

Both armies meet across a long even field. For the sake of arguement, we will say that the units see each other at 150 feet, the exact long range of a musket as per d20 rules.

I'll assume that Team A wins initiative thier soldiers stand in two ranks, front row kneeling, back row standing. Their ranks take up a space 10 feet by 125 feet.

Team b Is in two ranks as well but only take up a 10 x 50 square.
The wizard stands behind the ranks.
1a) The Muskets are loaded and prepaired to fire.
1b) The wizard casts Wall of Force it exceeds th area of fifty feet of cover, the archers now have 100% cover.
2a) The Muskets are fired to no affect, (Guns shoot straight to targets, no arc.)
2b) The Wizard casts Improved Invisiblity on himself.
3a) Muskets are reloaded.
3b) Wizard casts Haste on himself.
4a) Team A advances 15 Feet and fires to no effect.
4b) Wizard Casts Fly on himself
5a) Team a reloads.
5b) Team b prepares bows and arrows. Wizard files 90 feet to a Flanking position to the ememies side, (Left or right doesn't really matter.)
6a) Team a advances 15 feet and fires. No effect.
6b) Team b archers ready an action The will attack once the wizard launches lightning bolt.
7a) Team A reloads.
7b) Wizard lands at the 100 yard mark of the archers range. But off to the side So as to be 10 feet from the end of the enemy ranks when they pass him.
8a) The warriors advance and fire. They miss again now they are
105 five feet away.
8b) Archers hold action. Wizard holds action until Team a is in position for a lightning bolt.
9a) Team a reloads.
9b) Team B holds action.
10a) Team A advances....
On 10 a the wizard launches a 10 x 100 foot lightning bolt. The lightning will reach 40 of the warriors on Team A. Even if the all save for half damage it is most likely that all will die. Those that do not save will most likely die and if they didn't, well then all of thier equipment will have to make saves to not be destroyed. Gun powder will most likely burn, not explode, but burn up if no cause additional damage to the warriors.

If this doesn't take out most of team A. The wizard uses his extra partial action and launches a second lightning bolt. This will virtually assue that 40 members of Team A dies.

In addition the Archers launch their attacks, since the lightning bolt goes off. The each of the final 10 have a chance of getting two arrows apiece aimed at them.

You can guess how the end plays out.