D&D 5E Hex and Bestow Curse

[doctorhook]

Two 5E spells: hex and bestow curse.

• Hex is a 1st-level enchantment spell which only appears on the warlock list.
• Bestow curse is a 3rd-level necromancy spell which is on the bard, cleric, and wizard spell lists; it is not on the warlock spell list, although warlocks have an invocation that allows them to cast bestow curse using one of their spell slots once between long rests.
• Hex only requires a bonus action, but bestow curse requires an action to cast.
• Hex has a range of 90 feet, but bestow curse requires the caster to touch the target.
• Hex causes BOTH of the following conditions:
  • The target takes +1d6 necrotic damage from any of the caster's attacks, AND;
  • The target has disadvantage on all ability checks with an ability of the caster's choice.
• Bestow curse causes ONE of the following conditions:
  • The target takes +1d8 necrotic damage from any of the caster's attacks, OR;
  • The target has disadvantage on all ability checks AND saving throws with an ability of the caster's choice, OR;
  • The target has disadvantage on all attack rolls against the caster, OR;
  • The target must make a Wisdom save each round or do nothing with its action, OR;
  • Another effect of similar scope to the preceding effects, subject to the DM's approval.
• Hex allows the caster to reassign the curse to a new target as a bonus action if the original target drops to 0 HP before the spell ends, but bestow curse has no similar mechanic.
• Both hex and bestow curse end when subjected to a remove curse spell.
• Cast as 3rd-level spells, bestow curse lasts for "Concentration, up to 1 minute", while hex has a duration of "Concentration, up to 8 hours".
• Cast as 5th-level spells (the highest spell slot level for warlocks, RAW), bestow curse lasts for 8 hours and no longer requires concentration, while hex has a duration of "Concentration, up to 24 hours".
• The duration of bestow curse can be extended further by casting it as an even higher level spell, up to 9th level, where it gains a duration of "until dispelled" (no concentration required). Hex's duration maximizes at 5th level (see above).
• For whatever it's worth, hex requires a minor material component (a petrified eye of newt) in addition to verbal and somatic components, while bestow curse is strictly verbal and somatic.

Clearly these spells are treading the same territory. (The text for hex even begins with the description, "You place a curse....") Yet these spells exist as similar but totally separate spells. Hex seems like it's meant to be a warlock-only version of bestow curse, and yet it's a spell rather than a class feature, meaning it's available to all bards (via their Magical Secrets class feature) and anyone who takes the Magic Initiate feat.

I'm scratching my head here. There's a lot going on with these two spells, so it's hard to compare them directly, but there are aspects of them that are dirt simple: hex is easier to cast, lasts longer, and grants two of bestow curse's effects for the price of one (though both are marginally weaker: hex deals an average of 1 less point of damage, and it doesn't apply disadvantage to saving throws).

So many questions: why is hex an enchantment but bestow curse a necromancy? Why doesn't the warlock have bestow curse on its spell list? Should hex have been a warlock class feature instead? Why are these two spells so redundant?

Help me figure out wtf is going on here, gang. Thanks in advance.

 

[jgsugden]

Apples and oranges. There are spells designed for specific classes that are stronger than spells other classes have at the same level because they are intended to be benefits of the class.

 

[Mirtek]

(though both are marginally weaker:

No marginally but significantly weaker. The penalty to ability checks might just as well not exist as far as the typical combat usage of Hex is concerned (just about everything relevant in combat requires a save rather than a check) and thus Hex is almost always cast for the damage only. However disadvantage on saving throws has a big effect.

 

[doctorhook]

Apples and oranges. There are spells designed for specific classes that are stronger than spells other classes have at the same level because they are intended to be benefits of the class.

I think I know what you're saying, but could you be more specific? On the face of it, hex looks more powerful to me, and yet it's relatively easy for other classes to pick up. If hex was meant to be a specific benefit for the warlock class, why isn't it just a class feature? Also, what are your thoughts about the other inconsistencies between these two spells?

 

[Mephista]

No marginally but significantly weaker. The penalty to ability checks might just as well not exist as far as the typical combat usage of Hex is concerned (just about everything relevant in combat requires a save rather than a check) and thus Hex is almost always cast for the damage only. However disadvantage on saving throws has a big effect.

Actually....

The skill disadvantage is actually pretty big if you have grapplers or trippers in your party, as those require skill checks, not saves.

The skill disadvantage is also great for important social challenges. Its easy to arrange for advantage without magic via Help, but cursing your opponent's WIS or CHA can have a strong effect as well. Cursing WIS can also be good for when you need to sneak past a guard.

 

[Mephista]

Two 5E spells: hex and bestow curse.

....

Help me figure out wtf is going on here, gang. Thanks in advance.

Hex was originally created to model the 4e Warlock Curse, unless I miss my guess, while Bestow Curse is a pretty classic spell. Why the difference in school? I don't know for sure, but if I had to guess, I'd say just different authors wrote the spells, and the different labels got put on. Not like it really matters, though - wizards are the only ones who care, and I'm fairly sure they don't get school benefits from Hex.

Really, I would say that the big thing is that they were approached in two different ways, but then changed slightly to be closer in execution after they were both written. I mean, both spells, despite similarities, are designed to act completely different. One's a 4e striker mark, one's meant to be a powerful debuff spell.

 

[Falling Icicle]

No marginally but significantly weaker. The penalty to ability checks might just as well not exist as far as the typical combat usage of Hex is concerned (just about everything relevant in combat requires a save rather than a check) and thus Hex is almost always cast for the damage only. However disadvantage on saving throws has a big effect.

Hexing strength can actually be pretty effective against some enemies since grappling is a Strength (Athletics) check.

 

[Mirtek]

OK, the hex disadvantage is useful for shovers (thought it was a save, like with a battle masters trip attack) I'll grant that. It may also be usefull for grapplers, but grappling is such a useless action that I still say it doesn't matter here

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Actually....

The skill disadvantage is actually pretty big if you have grapplers or trippers in your party, as those require skill checks, not saves.

Hexing + grappling isn't quite as strong as you might think it should be because the target always has the option to switch to Dexterity (Acrobatics) instead of Strength (Athletics). Even if Dex is the weaker stat, it can be better than Str with disadvantage.

Don't get me wrong, Hex is absolutely worthwhile, I'm just pointing out a countermeasure.

Other uses for Hex include Hexing sleeping dragons' Wisdom (Perception) to make them easier to sneak up on, and Hexing the target of an illusion to penalize his believe check (Intelligence (Investigation)). Typically works better with a teammate than solo. Edit: also, initiative is a Dexterity check, so if you're using Speed Factor initiative or similar, Hexing Dexterity can be pretty advantageous in forcing the enemy to react to events too slowly.

Other differences:

Bestow Curse can incapacitate a target.
Bestow Curse can be made semi-permanent.
Bestow Curse V doesn't take concentration. That's huge.
Bestow Curse can be used to enhance spells like Planar Binding to make them more efficient (by disadvantaging the Charisma check).

The only real overlap I see between the spells is the "+d8 necrotic damage per attack" option of Bestow Curse, which is actually the weakest option IMO.

It's a fun spell. One of my players love to have his PC use that spell in various other ways, from giving guards diarrhea so he can sneak past them, to shutting up another PC after the second or third interruption during delicate negotiations (I ruled it as a Wisdom save in order to be able to speak[1]).

[1] The targeted player didn't seem to take offense for some reason. Maybe he knew his PC was out of line.

 

[77IM]

Bestow curse seems super-weak to me. I'm not sure why anyone would cast it, really. Maybe to debuff a saving throw on the round before you cast a big nasty spell? Sure, if it works, and you just spent a round and a spell slot -- you were probably better just casting some other offensive spell for damage.

Like I look at the "disadvantage on attack rolls against the caster" and think, "Why not just cast blur and get that against all foes, at 1 level lower?"

Or I look at the "wisdom save every round to take an action" and think, "Why not just hold person and move in for the kill?" (Actually the "wisdom save every round to take an action" is one of the better effects of bestow curse.)

Honestly I think the authors were just concerned about this spell being too powerful and nerfed it too hard. I think you could give the victim disadvantage on everything for 24 hours and it wouldn't be too strong for a 3rd-level Concentration spell.

I wish there were better guidelines about the "other effects" too. When I think of curses bestowed in fantasy I think of things like, "you have the gift of prophesy but no-one believes you" or "you will spend 10 years finding your way home" or "you will walk the night forever as a blood-sucking vampire" or maybe "you are turned into a frog." I think it would have been cooler if bestow curse had been like wish, in that the primary effect would be to replicate the effect of lower-level spells, but only harmful spells, and with a longer duration. E.g. if you cast bestow curse as a 5th-level spell, you could replicate the effects of a 4th-level spell, like polymorph, but for 24 hours. I'd make it much easier to achieve the "until dispelled" duration, too. That's some neat stuff that can lead to interesting stories. "You are cursed with disadvantage on attacks against me for 1 minute" is totally boring.