Here's a good Toughness House Rule!

[Anubis]

I've long felt that all the Toughness feats were useless, and with the arrivel of Epic Toughness, my feelings have been cemented.

Toughness is the only useful feat in the group, and even then only to Level 1 characters.



First off, it must be noted that under these new rules, you may NOT take the same Toughness feat more than once. This House Rule makes it a string of single feats that do not stack with themselves, but rather improve with level and feat investment.

Prerequisites will be noted in brackets.

With that, here is my House Rule for Toughness:

Toughness: gain 3 hp + 1 hp/Level

Dwarf's Toughness [Con 14+, Base Fort save +5 or higher, Toughness feat]: gain 6 hp + 2 hp/Level; this *replaces* the bonus hp granted by Toughness

Giant's Toughness [Con 16+, Base Fort save +8 or higher, Toughness feat, Dwarf's Toughness feat]: gain 9 hp + 3 hp/Level; this *replaces* the bonus hp granted by Toughness and Dwarf's Toughness

Dragon's Toughness [Con 18+, Base Fort save +11 or higher, Toughness feat, Dwarf's Toughness feat, Giant's Toughness feat]: gain 12 hp + 4 hp/Level; this *replaces* the bonus hp granted by Toughness, Dwarf's Toughness, and Giant's Toughness

Epic Toughness [Epic Feat; Toughness feat, Dwarf's Toughness feat, Giant's Toughness feat, Dragon's Toughness feat]: gain 20 hp + 5 hp/Level; this *replaces* the bonus hp granted by Toughness, Dwarf's Toughness, Giant's Toughness, and Dragon's Toughness

Questions/Comments?

 

[Crothian]

Is it retroactive?

Personally, I'm not a big fan of a feat that gives soemthing more every single level. Toughness alone gives an extra 23 HP by 20th level. That's a really nice bonus for Wizards and Sorcerers who actually have reason to take this feat.

 

[Anubis]

As written, yes, it is retroactive.

When thinking about balance, I figured at worst trading in five feats for over 120 hp wasn't too unbalancing, and that the steps of the feat were in line with current balance rules.

 

[Crothian]

Well, 4 feats gets you 92 extra HP at 20th level. The epic toughness you need to be 21+ level to even get. You are right giving up that many feats is very hard to do at any levels. The way you have it written, I think I'd almost always take toughness with thee human bonus feat. That's an extr 4hp at first level plus one every additional level. That's really good. So, I think picking up toughness under these rules will almost be a no brainer for anyone.

I agree that all of these feats as they are originally are useless. Toughness not so much becasue it is the prerequite to a few good PrCl.

 

[Valicor]

its definately a different way of looking at it. I was wondering if you have tested it out in a game enviroment to see if it is over powered or not.

At the moment the house rule I use is, once you take any one of the feats is upgrades the the next best one, when you meat the prequisites.

 

[Anubis]

So do you think this is a good and balanced House Rule?

This way, it's useful to more than just spellcasters . . . (Heck, with the prerequisites, some spellcasters need to be over Level 21 just to get Giant's Toughness and Dragon's Toughness!) . . . I think it could help breathe life into the Toughness feats.

Good/Bad?

 

[Anubis]

I have yet to test this in play, mainly because I wanna figure it out BEFORE play. I have run big campaigned before, however, and considering how few feats you get through the first 20 levels, I would think it wouldn't be too awful overpowering if people even take it at all.

 

[Valicor]

I have yet to test this in play, mainly because I wanna figure it out BEFORE play. I have run big campaigned before, however, and considering how few feats you get through the first 20 levels, I would think it wouldn't be too awful overpowering if people even take it at all.

When I look at this I am looking at a Barbarian Dwarf using it.

Hit Dice: 20d12 =126 Hp, Avg
Con 18 + racial (Dwarf) +5 level advancment +5 Inhert (Tome) +6 Amulet of Health =260 HP
Add Your Toughness Chain for: 120 HP
Rage: +3 Con x20 =60 HP

By Avg Rolls & Rage you have 566 HP
By 75% (Most players I have seen get this range) 623 HP
Max (Highly Unlikely) 680 HP

Oppinions?

 

[Anubis]

I realize that's a lot of hp, but considering that costs five whole feats to get, that means the Dwarf Barbarian won't have but three other feats at Level 21.

My question is, is it a good trade? Is five feats for 120 hp balanced?

 

[Crothian]

Well, the smaller the HD and lower the con, the better this toughness looks. A 20th level elven wizard with a 12 con has an average of 72 (2.5 on a d4), or 81 at 75% (3 on a d4) also calculating in max at first level. The 23 for just the toughness feat is pretty darn good. IMO, too good.