Help with Lance critical please

[Sandain]

Hello,

A Githyanki Blackguard rides an adult red dragon and wields a Lance.

He uses a charge action and his spirited charge feat to attack a PC.

If he hits normally does he do x3 base damage plus extra for str and magic? or is it x3 on everything?

If he hits with a critical - what damage does he do please? Is it x3 + x3 or does it just move to x4?

Thankyou,

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

The Spirited-Charging, Dragon-riding, Heavy-Lance-Wielding Githyanki does 3d8 + 3 X damage modifiers with his charge. All damage modifiers (unless they come from extra dice of damage) are multiplied.

A lance has a crit multiplier of X3, so a crit during the aforementioned charge would do X5 the damage.

AR

 

[Someone]

As long it´s not extra damage dice (like sneak attack, or flaming/frost/etc energy damage) everything multiplies; strenght, magic, smite good/evil, favored enemy damage bonus...

For the critical, it helps thinking on that Spirited charge means rolling damage three times (two more than normal) Also, a critical hit means the same, two extra damage rolls. So we have 1 damage roll (normal) +2 damage rolls (spirited charge) + 2 damage rolls (critical)= x5

 

[Sandain]

I was just emailed the following;

Okay from a full charge he gets X3 damage with spirited charge. That's
NON crit damage.

On a crit it does X3 and then X 3 again for the crit threat. using an average of 5 damage per die it is 15 X 3 = 45 x 3 = 135

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

Well, what Someone and I said is the correct way of handling it... Let me try to find a quote in the SRD...

MULTIPLYING
Sometimes a rule makes you multiply a number or a die roll. As long as you’re applying a single multiplier, multiply the number normally. When two or more multipliers apply to any abstract value (such as a modifier or a die roll), however, combine them into a single multiple, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. Thus, a double (×2) and a double (×2) applied to the same number results in a triple (×3, because 2 + 1 = 3).

When applying multipliers to real-world values (such as weight or distance), normal rules of math apply instead. A creature whose size doubles (thus multiplying its weight by 8) and then is turned to stone (which would multiply its weight by a factor of roughly 3) now weighs about 24 times normal, not 10 times normal. Similarly, a blinded creature attempting to negotiate difficult terrain would count each square as 4 squares (doubling the cost twice, for a total multiplier of ×4), rather than as 3

Also, just in case, when handling multiplied damage (from charge or critical) you actually roll the damage a number of times and add the total. You don't roll the damage once and multiply the result...

AR

 

[Sandain]

So strength and magic modifiers are never multiplied when rolling crits?

This is from the 3.5 SDR

Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage.

Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied.


So it seems if my lance wielder hit on a crit I would roll the following;
3d8 + str + magic

The crits would be a further 2d8+ 2x str + 2x magic

 

[shilsen]

So strength and magic modifiers are never multiplied when rolling crits?

This is from the 3.5 SDR

Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage.

Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied.


So it seems if my lance wielder hit on a crit I would roll the following;
3d8 + str + magic

The crits would be a further 2d8+ 2x str + 2x magic

No, they are multiplied. Only bonus damage dice (e.g. from sneak attacks, a flaming weapon, etc.) are not multiplied.

 

[Sandain]

Ok, so my Githyanki on a Crit does 5d8 + 5x Str + 5x magic?

 

[dcollins]

Yes. Sometimes easier to remember as (1d8 + Str + magic) done 5 times over.

 

[Carpe DM]

It's a harder interpretive question than one might think.

The 3.0 rules were clear that static bonuses (stat, magic, etc.) were multiplied.

The 3.5 rules are not clear whether static bonuses were multiplied. It merely says that extra damage is not multiplied.

As with many so-called "improvements" from 3.0 to 3.5, this one made the rules less clear.

Most people have chosen to ignore this "change" (it's not clear WOTC intended to change it, they may have just simply borked up the text like they did so many other places) because it would funamentally shift the game even further in favor of spellcasting titans, and would leave the poor sword-and-board folk even further out in the "reject wing."

best,

Carpe