Help Me Understand Fate Core

[GX.Sigma]

I'm new to Fate (having played it once), but I wanted to look into it as an engine for a Star Trek game I want to run, since it's generic and skinny (though, as I'm learning, it's certainly not rules-light). I'm reading the PDF, and a lot of things don't make sense to me.

(p. 69) You can apparently invoke an aspect "on someone else's character sheet," and if you do, you give them a fate point. So, does that mean you can invoke other characters' aspects to get the bonus for yourself? If not, what the hell does that rule mean? You invoke someone's aspect for them, to give them a bonus and give them one of your fate points? Either way, why wouldn't everyone do this all the time, so everyone gets bonuses (and fate points are just shuffled around between players and not truly lost)?

(p. 71) If a player proposes a compel for another player, the player who proposed it has to pay a fate point to the GM. So... why the hell would anyone ever do this, if it creates a bad effect and costs a resource? Just to be a dick to a fellow player?

Are there any Fate gurus who can help me figure this stuff out?

I'll update this thread with more questions as I continue reading (my brain is already hurting at the few mentions of conflicts so far, and I dread reading that chapter).

 

[Umbran]

I don't have the FATE core, but I have played a bit of fate recently. Speaking from general knowledge...

(p. 69) You can apparently invoke an aspect "on someone else's character sheet," and if you do, you give them a fate point. So, does that mean you can invoke other characters' aspects to get the bonus for yourself? If not, what the hell does that rule mean? You invoke someone's aspect for them, to give them a bonus and give them one of your fate points? Either way, why wouldn't everyone do this all the time, so everyone gets bonuses (and fate points are just shuffled around between players and not truly lost)?

Not quite.

The point is that, if you can find a reasonable justification the GM will accept, you can use anyone's aspect to help you out. "My friend is helping me find that lost e-mail - he's got the aspect 'computer wiz'. Can we invoke that to help?" In this case, the players pay the point to the GM. I think technically the one who gets the bonus pays the GM, but I've seen it played that either one of them can pay.

In general, if the players are helped by the aspect, the fate point goes to the GM.

(p. 71) If a player proposes a compel for another player, the player who proposed it has to pay a fate point to the GM. So... why the hell would anyone ever do this, if it creates a bad effect and costs a resource? Just to be a dick to a fellow player?

If the PCs are in conflict, and one player proposes a compel for another player, he or she must pay the other player, just as the GM would.

If the players are on the same side, but one proposes a compel (because it is fun and appropriate), and the GM agrees that it is cool, the *GM* should pay the player that is compelled. So, basically, this is only the player giving the GM a cool idea, and the GM using it.

 

[Ratskinner]

I'm new to Fate (having played it once), but I wanted to look into it as an engine for a Star Trek game I want to run, since it's generic and skinny (though, as I'm learning, it's certainly not rules-light). I'm reading the PDF, and a lot of things don't make sense to me.

Honestly, I love FATE, but that book I think might be a little too heavy a read for first-timers. Its shooting to cover all the ground that experienced and sophisticated users of the system have come up with. Sometimes I think it loses the simple game underneath. If you haven't seen it, try the "Accelerated" edition. I can (re)assure you that it actually plays a lot lighter than it reads IME. However, it is a kinda different philosophy for D&D-ers.

(p. 69) You can apparently invoke an aspect "on someone else's character sheet," and if you do, you give them a fate point. So, does that mean you can invoke other characters' aspects to get the bonus for yourself? If not, what the hell does that rule mean? You invoke someone's aspect for them, to give them a bonus and give them one of your fate points? Either way, why wouldn't everyone do this all the time, so everyone gets bonuses (and fate points are just shuffled around between players and not truly lost)?

Not to disagree with [MENTION=177]Umbran[/MENTION], but....I will. A bit.

Yes, you can invoke other PCs aspects for your own benefit, so long as it makes some narrative sense that everybody/theGM buys. If you do, they get the FATE point. (Unless I'm forgetting something, all other invokes will send their Fate Point payments to the "bank".) You can actually invoke any aspect that's lying around (from the scene, setting, etc.), but the Fate Point goes into the "bank" unless another player "owns" the aspect.

You cannot (usually) invoke someone else's aspects for their benefit.*

You can invoke your own aspects to help another character on their roll: "Take a re-roll, Bob, I'm Good luck for everyone but myself." That still sends the FP to the "bank".

The text (I think) is a little unclear, but most tables/GMs wouldn't let you invoke a third-party aspect (from the scene, zone, situation, etc.) to help another player.

Mostly, this is to preserve the Fate Point economy. That is, Fate Points are little bits of undefined narrative awesome. (To put it in very crude terms). You're supposed to be earning your FP through compels on your aspects (either from the GM or other players). If you haven't earned the awesome, you shouldn't get the benefit. When you invoke your own aspect for someone else (or vice versa), you're still demonstrating how awesome you are (even if its just from hanging around with this other cool guy).

I mention the "bank" (also called the "pool" or "reserve") because its a distinction that is often confusing for new players. See, the GM has a pile of Fate points, but he can only use them to pay for compels. That's the "bank". Occasionally, the GM might have important NPC's that also have (usually only one or two) Fate Points of their own. (There's a few other odd cases, but their all in the GM's hands and the game plays fine without them.)

*Some games in the Supers genre might have "team" aspects that you could possibly invoke to help a teammate out...I'm a little unclear as to how "ownership" of those aspects works, but then again it seems simple and fair enough to say that if we're both Xvengers we could use that to help each other out, thus contributing to the "team" awesome.

(p. 71) If a player proposes a compel for another player, the player who proposed it has to pay a fate point to the GM. So... why the hell would anyone ever do this, if it creates a bad effect and costs a resource? Just to be a dick to a fellow player?

No. If you accept a compel on your character, you get the Fate Point. Always. In fact, I've usually seen it that if you get hurt by a compel on any aspect, you get a FP. (Sometimes everyone gets an FP when the fur is really flying.) The only thing that changes is where the Fate Point comes from. The GM has an infinite pool of them (that "bank" thing). Other players have to use their own to compel you.

Why would they do this? Maybe you're out of Fate Points and there's a climactic scene coming up. Remember, this game is not the purely additive exercise that D&D is, nor does it have the same sort of antagonistic GM-players relationship that old-school D&D has. Aspects (and the characters they describe) need to be interesting, and sometimes you need to take the hit to make things interesting. If this happens regularly, you might want to re-think your aspects and look for something that's more easily compellable.

Are there any Fate gurus who can help me figure this stuff out?

I dunno if I'm a guru, but I'll try to help out. Also, there's a thriving Google+ Fate Core Community (like 4k members). Its basically sucked up all the activity from the old mailing lists and Yahoo group.

 

[ThirdWizard]

(p. 69) You can apparently invoke an aspect "on someone else's character sheet," and if you do, you give them a fate point. So, does that mean you can invoke other characters' aspects to get the bonus for yourself? If not, what the hell does that rule mean? You invoke someone's aspect for them, to give them a bonus and give them one of your fate points? Either way, why wouldn't everyone do this all the time, so everyone gets bonuses (and fate points are just shuffled around between players and not truly lost)?

The most common reason I've seen to invoke an aspect on someone else's character is because you're trying to do something very bad to that character, whether it be an attack, an opposed roll, or creating an advantage.

So, for example, lets say you're trying to sneak up on a guard to knock him out quietly so that the group can sneak by. The GM, in setting the scene, has included that the guard looks bored. So, you sneak up on him and roll your Sneak skill as Fair (2) vs. his Notice of Good (3). A miss. But, you can then invoke the guard's aspect of Nothing Interesting Ever Happens against him. Why would you do this? Well, maybe your character isn't good at sneaking and you don't have any aspects to help with this. But, because of the guard's aspect, you can still invoke for the +2 you'll need to get to him.

As another example, a PC in a Fate game I run has a stunt that creates a boost on his enemy every time he hits. Another PC has a stunt that creates an aspect with a free invoke on the enemy when he succeeds with style on a defensive roll. In both these cases, invoking those aspects would send a Fate point the way of the target at the end of the scene, assuming they survive to fight another day.

As a GM I use these kinds of invokes for things like attacks against PCs. Maybe the PC has the aspect Ragnar's Glass Cannon. If I'm attacking, and I want to stack some invokes I can use that against him. This is kind of like a compel. Something bad is happening to the PC (enemy getting +2 to attack) and so the PC gets the Fate Point that the enemy spent. Note that in these cases, where you invoke someone's aspect, then they don't get the Fate Point until the next scene.

(p. 71) If a player proposes a compel for another player, the player who proposed it has to pay a fate point to the GM. So... why the hell would anyone ever do this, if it creates a bad effect and costs a resource? Just to be a dick to a fellow player?

The quote is "If a player wants to compel another character..." (emphasis added).

Lets say I'm a big burly fighter PC, and I hit the enemy hard, causing them to take the moderate consequence Can't Straight Think... Concussion Maybe. I can propose a compel to that aspect. I propose that there's no way he can hit a target very far away with all that blurred vision. If he wants to attack, he's gonna have to be in the same zone as the target. The GM accepts, the NPC gets a Fate Point, and he moves forward.

So, you're perfectly capable of compelling NPCs' aspects, just like the GM can compel your aspects. You just have to know them, be willing to give the NPC a Fate Point, and have a good idea.

 

[WhimsyTheFae]

My post comes from a Fate Accelerated perspective.

Invoke another character's Aspect:
If the Aspect is applicable based on the situation and the "fiction of the game", pay a Fate Point to the GM (unless you are Invoking another PC's Aspect TO USE AGAINST THAT PC, in which case you pay the Fate Point to that PC's player).

Reroll your action OR add 2 to your roll OR add 2 to your opponent's difficulty OR add 2 to an ally's roll.

Compel another character's Aspect:
If the Aspect and Compel are applicable and agreed upon, pay a Fate Point to the GM or the PC's player if compelling a PC's Aspect. If them GM or Player agree to the Compel, it occurs and payment is kept. If it is not accepted, both the offered Fate Point AND another Fate Point from that player's (or GM's) Fate Point pool are given to the Compelling player (or GM) in order to buy off (refuse) the Compel.

A Compel may be used to dictate a character's decision (often causing a character to take a course if action that the Compelling player/GM wants to happen, such as choosing to drink heavily the night before an important meeting) OR to cause an appropriate event to take place (once again, that the Compelling player/GM wishes to take place, such as an enemy if the Compelled character suddenly showing up).

I can't comment of other varieties of Fate.

 

[GX.Sigma]

My next question is, can Fate support a sandbox scenario? I ask because it seems there are mechanics that exist just to facilitate railroading. I'm mostly talking about compels here.

I don't even really understand compels. An event-based compel is proposed when the GM decides something would make sense to happen, based on a character's aspects... but why do you need a fate point economy and shared narrative control to make that happen? Won't a good GM do that anyway? Why give the player a reward for something that would happen anyway?

A decision-based compel seems to just exist so the GM can make whatever scenes he wanted to happen, happen. I mean, I can understand a system that gives players a reward for doing something they wouldn't normally do, but that only makes sense to me if the players can opt into it. So why the heck does it cost a fate point to refuse a compel? Refusing to be railroaded actually costs you resources? And if you have no fate points left, you can't make any decisions at all?

I'm not saying I (or any sensible GM) would run it that way, I'm just trying to make sense of it. I'm imagining the following scenario:

[sblock]GM: Okay, you come aboard Terok Nor. Your goal is to find out everything you can about Capt. Maxwell before going down to the planet to catch him.
Player 1: Well, let's talk to the station commander first.
GM: Uh, I'm compelling all of you with the [pre-established] situation aspect Everyone's Afraid of Dukat. You don't want to talk to him yet.
Player 2: ...Um, okay, let's ingratiate ourselves with the slaves first?
GM: I'm compelling you all with the situation aspect Uneasy Ceasefire. You don't want to break station protocol for fear of jeopardizing the peace talks.
Player 3: ...So let's go to the bar first?
GM: Good choice! A short, large-eared humanoid greets you from behind the bar...[/sblock]That doesn't make sense to me, but how else are you supposed to use compels?

Also, "getting taken out" of a conflict. What happens if you get taken out? Supposedly, "the person who took you out gets to decide what your loss looks like and what happens to you after the conflict" (168). So, if an intrepid adventurer gets taken out by a bloodthirsty orc, presumably that means he dies? But then there's a whole section about not having PCs die. So what happens instead? The GM has to make something up on the spot? And how do you decide what's a concession and what's a failure?

 

[dbm]

Bear in mind that the majority of aspects in play will come from the PCs, and that the players get to define what those are. Aspects are a way for players to signal to the GM what they want the game to be about. A player who gives their character the aspect "Master of Capo Ferro" is signalling they want different types of scenes than a player who gives their character "I never got the hang of the Fox Trot". One of your jobs as the GM is to weave the different PC aspects into an interesting set of encounters. This is one of the reasons why Fate is an excellent system for running a sandbox. The players give you lots of little threads and you can emphasise different ones as the game progresses.

Fate requires trust between players and GM. You can use the tools it gives you to push people around, sure, but that's not what they are for. Good use of aspects adds twists to the flow of the game - complications which should be fun to play out. The players can refuse the compel because the system isn't perfect, and you as GM might interpret their aspect differently to how they had envisaged. But if the system is working well and the GM is in sync with the players then (in my experience) they rarely do reject a compel.

Another thing to keep in mind is that aspects are all about spotlight time. Having the GM compel one of your aspects makes you the centre of attention at that moment. It also earns you a Fate point which allows you to do something cool later on - again making you the focal point. If you as the GM spread around those compels you are also ensuring that each of the players gets their time to shine.

Taking out an opponent does allow you to do what you like with them, but defeated in combat doesn't have to mean instant death (though it could - that's what happens in most traditional games, after all). But it could mean being stored for later eating (like the Wompa did with Luke in Empire Strikes Back) or any other outcome you choose as the winning party.

When a player concedes, they get to say (within reason) what happens to their character. So if you are facing a lethal opponent you might choose to concede if the battle is going against you and you want to be sure you won't die. Or any time, really, when the odds are against you and the price of failure is likely to be too high. It's a mechanism for keeping the game going through avoiding the worst possible outcomes by accepting a lesser (but still meaningful) loss.

Deciding a concession is easy - the player says they want to concede and offers the penalty they are willing to take. The other party decides if they are willing to accept or not; if not you will need to offer a better concession. There is really no grey area here.

 

[RobShanti]

Lets say I'm a big burly fighter PC, and I hit the enemy hard, causing them to take the moderate consequence Can't Straight Think... Concussion Maybe. I can propose a compel to that aspect. I propose that there's no way he can hit a target very far away with all that blurred vision. If he wants to attack, he's gonna have to be in the same zone as the target. The GM accepts, the NPC gets a Fate Point, and he moves forward.

I think this example may prove a little confusing because it sounds like, in this instance, the Aspect "Can't Straight Think... Concussion Maybe," being caused by a hard hit, gets a free invoke, possibly two if you succeeded with style (FATE Core, p. 70). In that case, no Fate Points are exchanged.

 

[steenan]

I play Fate quite a lot, but have never seen compels used in a railroady fashion.
There are two main reasons, in my experience:

1. Compels can be refused. Unless they are out of FP, players may just not accept the compel. Because of this, it's a perfect tool to model various emotional and social interactions - it gives the player a strong incentive to follow a compel without taking control away from them.

2. Only existing aspects can be compelled. If you put an aspect on your character sheet, compelling it is giving you what you want from the game. And if the aspect was created in-game, it's because of something specific that happened. A consequence you took to stay in conflict, an advantage someone gained over you, something like that. Compelling them means reinforcing that what happened is important and affects the current situation.

Compels are a great way to reward players who don't ignore their character's flaws and who engage the fiction. Compels are a poor tool for forcing players to do something specific.




What "taken out" exactly means is something the group should decide on.

Fate's default is that it should be painful, but not lethal. You got in the conflict for some reason, something was at stake - often, losing it is what hurts most (and if there's nothing significant at stake, why do we have a conflict?). Sometimes, there will be an additional loss - being stripped of your gear, taken prisoner, something like that. But it should be a complication that makes further play harder and more interesting, not something that removes you from the game.

Fate, as opposed to D&D and similar games, does not assume that players win by default. They will lose some conflicts, so the loss should be something that makes the game more fun, not less.

 

[ThirdWizard]

I think this example may prove a little confusing because it sounds like, in this instance, the Aspect "Can't Straight Think... Concussion Maybe," being caused by a hard hit, gets a free invoke, possibly two if you succeeded with style (FATE Core, p. 70). In that case, no Fate Points are exchanged.

This is somewhat incorrect. If you're compelled you get a Fate Point. Period. If its a free invoke, then you do not spend a Fate Point, but all compels give the compelled character a Fate Point.