D&D 5E Haste from higher slots...

[delph]

I'm thinking about haste. It's good spell fot 3rd spell slot, but it has it's limitation. What about push limits with casting from higher slots.

My simple idea is:
6 lvl slot - same as Action surge (can do whole action, so can cast, made extra atacks) +3 (+4?) AC, not sure about duration. One turn is too expensive, 1 min could be too strong

9 lvl slot - totaly double turn - 2 actions, 2 bonus actions, 2 reactions, +4 (+6?) AC, not sure about duration... One turn is too expensive, 1 min could be too strong

and thinking if it's time spell - your time is twice quicker (when you get some poison, or condition you have to roll twice for efect), or it's some vital aspect and it could get some exhaustion.

How much it's broking rule?

 

[Bacon Bits]

The primary problem with haste isn't how potent the effect is, it's that it only affects one target but still requires concentration. A third level spell that takes concentration and allows one martial party member to be 50% more effective just isn't worth it in the majority of encounters, especially if you target a character who doesn't normally take the Attack action.

Bless, on the other hand, is much better. It's still concentration, but it buffs at least three party members so it's likely to be used every round, and adding spell levels does what you want: Lets you include even more party members. I see people take bless all the time. I've never seen someone take haste unless they were a high level Eldritch Knight or it was on their divine spell list.

Therefore, I think haste (and slow) should target additional targets when cast at higher levels. I'd even argue they might need to hit two targets at 3rd level to really be worthwhile. Other classically good buff/debuff spells like stoneskin are similarly too limited to be useful, though stoneskin has the problem that resistance is much, much worse than immunity.

Concentration really ruins a lot of spells, and the designers really didn't rebalance everything with it in mind. Look at time stop. That used to be an amazing spell; now it's so limited that it's not really powerful enough to be 9th level.

 

[FrogReaver]

The primary problem with haste isn't how potent the effect is, it's that it only affects one target but still requires concentration. A third level spell that takes concentration and allows one martial party member to be 50% more effective just isn't worth it in the majority of encounters, especially if you target a character who doesn't normally take the Attack action.

Bless, on the other hand, is much better. It's still concentration, but it buffs at least three party members so it's likely to be used every round, and adding spell levels does what you want: Lets you include even more party members. I see people take bless all the time. I've never seen someone take haste unless they were a high level Eldritch Knight or it was on their divine spell list.

Therefore, I think haste (and slow) should target additional targets when cast at higher levels. I'd even argue they might need to hit two targets at 3rd level to really be worthwhile. Other classically good buff/debuff spells like stoneskin are similarly too limited to be useful, though stoneskin has the problem that resistance is much, much worse than immunity.

Concentration really ruins a lot of spells, and the designers really didn't rebalance everything with it in mind. Look at time stop. That used to be an amazing spell; now it's so limited that it's not really powerful enough to be 9th level.

Haste is the wizards single target answer - provided he has an ally with a high damage attack. For example a reckless attacking barbarian.

In terms of damage the wizard is now dealing

2d6+6 at advantage
and 2d10 firebalt

 

[FrogReaver]

I'm thinking about haste. It's good spell fot 3rd spell slot, but it has it's limitation. What about push limits with casting from higher slots.

My simple idea is:
6 lvl slot - same as Action surge (can do whole action, so can cast, made extra atacks) +3 (+4?) AC, not sure about duration. One turn is too expensive, 1 min could be too strong

9 lvl slot - totaly double turn - 2 actions, 2 bonus actions, 2 reactions, +4 (+6?) AC, not sure about duration... One turn is too expensive, 1 min could be too strong

and thinking if it's time spell - your time is twice quicker (when you get some poison, or condition you have to roll twice for efect), or it's some vital aspect and it could get some exhaustion.

How much it's broking rule?

The problem with haste is that in the worst case scenarios it's already broken even on a single target.

 

[delph]

Haste is the wizards single target answer - provided he has an ally with a high damage attack. For example a reckless attacking barbarian.

In terms of damage the wizard is now dealing

2d6+6 at advantage
and 2d10 firebalt

And it's not only "made 1 more attack" +2 AC is really nice if you stand in frontline. But as I could see, slow is mutch better spell. It's "mass" spell, reduces not 1 attack, but to only 1 attack. (we met 4 golems or what with 3 attacks per turn. At First battle we run away. The second battle wizard stared with slow, and than it was easy fight). But slow have "save", haste no.

 

[Ashrym]

Haste gives a fair number of benefits as is. Movement speed, DEX saves, AC, and a limited action. It's almost always worthwhile to pick up because of immunities, legendary saves or good saves, or flat out not having the right spells prepped. It's pretty hard to have haste (or buffs in general) be a miss as a useful spell.

Twinned haste is also a common sorcerer move, ime. Concentration is less an issue when you can twin concentration spells and start with CON save proficiency.

Changing haste also goes against the general action economy restrictions goal if it's to include more targets. That was a deliberate restriction for a reason. My advice would be to leave it the way it is.

 

[GlassJaw]

Therefore, I think haste (and slow) should target additional targets when cast at higher levels. I'd even argue they might need to hit two targets at 3rd level to really be worthwhile. Other classically good buff/debuff spells like stoneskin are similarly too limited to be useful, though stoneskin has the problem that resistance is much, much worse than immunity.

I see no problem with scaling Haste so that it can affect additional targets. If you are concerned about balance, start with 1 target for every 2 spell slots higher.

Concentration really ruins a lot of spells, and the designers really didn't rebalance everything with it in mind. Look at time stop. That used to be an amazing spell; now it's so limited that it's not really powerful enough to be 9th level.

Agreed. It also has the effect of pushing many spells aside at the expense of the most potent (like Bless). I wonder if an ability that allows a caster to concentrate on a 2nd spell but makes concentration on both more difficult (higher DC, more triggers to lose concentration, etc).

Not sure if this would a universal ability (maybe at higher levels), a feat, or subclass ability but it could result in seeing more variety in concentration spells.