Harpoon: delusions of grandeur or DM nightmare

[Lady Sabelle]

A fellow player came up with a raptoran character who uses a harpoon. He's the type of player that takes min/maxing to such extremes that it would even make a lawyer cry. (Though not all his builds are completely legal.) In our first game session he used his harpoon in a Powerful Charge (with the spell "Blades of Blood" and a 2-handed Power Attack to add insult to injury). The CL5 monster managed to survive the initial assault, however the secondary damage, when the character pulled the harpoon out, killed it. Thus a single 3rd lvl character ended what was meant to be a challenging encounter. And everyone else in the room cried "FOUL"
So my questions are centered around the harpoon and how to expound upon rules that are somewhat limited. The following is taken directly from the Frostburn entry:

Harpoon: The harpoon is a broad-bladed spear forged with barbs. The shaft of the harpoon has a trailing rope attached to control harpooned opponents. Though designed
for hunting whales and other large sea creatures, the harpoon can be used on dry land.
If it deals damage, the harpoon lodges in an opponent who fails a Reflex saving throw (DC 10 + the damage dealt).
A harpooned creature moves at only half speed and cannot charge or run. If you control the trailing rope by succeeding on an opposed Strength check while holding it, the harpooned creature can move only within the limits that the rope allows (the trailing rope is 30 feet long). If the harpooned creature attempts to cast a spell, it must succeed on a DC 15 Concentration check or lose the spell.
The harpooned creature can pull the harpoon from its wound if it has two free hands and takes a full-round action to do so, but it deals damage to itself equal to the initial damage the harpoon dealt. A character who succeeds on a DC 15 Heal check can remove a harpoon without further damage.

1. Can the Harpoon be used as a melee weapon without penalty? It is listed as a ranged weapon and NOT as a melee weapon with a range. (I'd like to believe the same rules would apply as with using a javelin as a melee weapon. -4 because it is not designed as a melee weapon)
2. If used as a melee weapon, how do you deal with the rules that govern the removal of a harpoon? Does the wielder keep control of the weapon, allowing him to pull the harpoon out as a full round action? (Doing the same amount of damage as when it went in, effectively giving him an automatic hit.)
3. Does he need some type of opposed check to keep control of the weapon? Would the two combatants be considered grappled (or something) while fighting for control?
4. Would removing the harpoon by the wielder be considered a full round heal check (which he intentionally fails) thus provoking an AoO? (to me this question sounds silly but it was brought up in the discussion in game)

These questions cover the meat of the issues with the harpoon. The DM could ban the stupid thing but the player has built the character around (ab)using the harpoon. (which really isn't an argument against banning it.) I would rather have a more diplomatic solution with solid reasoning to back it up.

 

[Goblyn]

Let me begin by saying that I don't have Frostburn, so I only have your post and the core RAW to go by.

First, this is two full round actions described here(charge and attack, then removal).

Second, if it is not a heavier-than-light melee weapon, you can't power attack with it and certainly not with two hands.

Third, I don't know what Powerful Charge is, but if the feat is in fact Spirited Charge, then the harpoon as you describe doesn't count since Spirited Charge specifies a melee weapon.

Now, if it is possible to use the the harpoon as a heavier-than-light melee weapon and thus these feats with it, then to your questions:

1:AFAICT the RAW is fuzzy on this. I would want to agree with you, but then the harpoon is also described as a spear, which has no such penalty. Other weapons have this penalty mentioned in the descrptions, so I would guess no.

2:It would be full round action, not to mention a hefty strength check, prolly in the neighbourhood of 10+initial damage dealt(this is just speculation on my part though). I think the closest RAW interpretation of this would be a ... disarm attempt?

3:This is mentioned as an opposed strength check in the given description. Grapple is not mentioned. It looks like either win -> controlled or lose -> dropped.

4:...sure. This one sounds fine.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

Do the same thing to him.

Then ask him if it's fair.

 

[Maldor]

what was the monster did it have low hp for a CL 5
the harpoon is a good weapon that why it cost a feat
it's say it can remove it not he can but it's kind of stuip to say he can't if he wins the str check to keep ahold of the line but i would make it a full round action
P.S.
sometime this stuff just happens if it happens alot and seems to be taking away the fun of the other PC's then out of game ask him to change the character or maybe build a new one.

 

[irdeggman]

Interesting.

I'd use the the javelin as a comparison weapon.

It is listed as a ranged weapon (and not a melee with range) - but the specific weapon description states it can be used in melee (albeit with a -4 penalty to hit).

The entry for harpoon does not state it can be used in melee - so I'd rule it can't.

Also that range increment is rather misleading since a lot of its restrictions depend on the fact that it hasa 30 ft rope attached. IMO if it is thrown beyond the range of the rope any benefits tied into the 30 ft rope are lost.

 

[Nail]

A fellow player came up with a raptoran character who uses a harpoon. He's the type of player that takes min/maxing to such extremes that it would even make a lawyer cry. (Though not all his builds are completely legal.)

In other words, "The DM has to constantly check him". :\ How annoying.

In our first game session he used his harpoon in a Powerful Charge (with the spell "Blades of Blood" and a 2-handed Power Attack to add insult to injury).

The Blade of Blood (PH II) spell use looks legal. The feat use of Powerful Charge (MH, MM3, etc) looks legal.

Harpoon Rules Issues:

• The harpoon is a ranged weapon, not a melee weapon. There is a penalty to hit while in melee.
• Since it becomes an improvised weapon when used in melee, we can compare it to a normal melee weapon to determine its type. The spear (rather than the short spear) looks like a good match, especially given the harpoon's weight (10 lbs!!!). A spear is a two-handed weapon.
• Used as a two-handed melee weapon, both Str 150% damage and Power Attack for double damage looks appropriate.
• Since the harpoon, used in melee, is not being used as designed, the ability of the harpoon to lodge in the opponent DOES NOT APPLY. Sorry!

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Agreed with Nail, using the Harpoon in melee is use as an improvised weapon. The special effects of the weapon do not come into play.

Second, its a full round action for the harpooned character to remove the harpoon. For an enemy they would definately face AoO from the harpooned character or other nearby enemies, as well as have to grab the harpoon. If there is a trailing rope, this could be a bit easier.. but you still wander into the realm of grappling and lose dex/threaten vs other characters around.
I would also say that the harpooned character could oppose the action with both hands if desired {negating any AoO chance}.

And strangly enough, the weapon is no longer as 'kewl' as it was before this thread started

 

[nittanytbone]

I'd suggest a quick house rule -- change the Reflex save DC to 10 + 1/2 Char Level + STR mod. That will keep the saves more reasonable, in line with spells. It will also allow the weapon to scale with the wielder's experience so that it remains useful in the hands of an expert user.

I'm not sure that I'd let the damage from Blade of Blood be applied twice (upon removal), either.

Boom, problem solved.

 

[RangerWickett]

While a harpoon is not optimal for stabbing with, I'm sure if the guy wanted he could design a barbed melee spear that works just the way a harpoon would after you stab someone with it.

 

[XCorvis]

The harpooned creature can pull the harpoon from its wound if it has two free hands and takes a full-round action to do so, but it deals damage to itself equal to the initial damage the harpoon dealt.

On the second round, did he do the same amount of damage he made with the Powerful Charge/PA/Blades of Blood? It might be RAW, but that's something I'd house rule out. Removing the harpoon should do base harpoon damage, maybe plus strength, but shouldn't let you get double the effect for the spells and feats you used last round.