half races and hybrid vigor

[DMH]

Heterosis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Half orcs are usually weaker than orcs and dumber than humans, which is the exact opposite of hybrid vigor. But hybrid vigor only exists for a generation or three and then there is a slow decline (to what point is dependant on the parent species).

If templates for half races are for those of the first generation, how might you "degenerate" the templates for subsequent generations? Or should the templates be for the degenerated generations and some bonuses applied to the first generation?

 

[Umbran]

Heterosis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Half orcs are usually weaker than orcs and dumber than humans, which is the exact opposite of hybrid vigor.

No. Hybrid vigor is not, "the child is superior to both parents in all ways, for all hybrid children." It is mostly about removing the impact of recessive genes, which can build up in genetically narrow strains.

So, for example, one breed of dogs may be highly prone to cancer, and another breed prone to certain forms of heart disease. A cross between them may have neither problem, so the hybrid is more vigorous than either parent.

To analogize, then - if both orcs and humans are narrow genetic pools, and the strength of both are being "held back" by a recessive gene, then a cross may be stronger than both parents. I'm not sure either race has been presented as being narrowly bred to have this effect be likely, though.

 

[the Jester]

Wait wait... if you're applying genetics to D&D, you're only going to find madness.

Are you going to start modifying pcs' stats based on their parents? Are orcs and humans the same species, that they interbreed so easily? There is long precedent of orcs crossing with many other species too (ogres, goblins, hobgoblins, etc). Are they all the same species? Can they all cross with each other? What about demons and dragons and their infamous ability to cross with anything? Or trolls? What sort of genes does a demon contribute to its half-fiend offspring?

How does all this affect religion and the gods that claim to have created such creatures whole cloth?

 

[DMH]

Wait wait... if you're applying genetics to D&D, you're only going to find madness.

Yes and no. I use biology to enhance fantasy and ignore it when it doesn't. Genetics can be used because of the implications.

A quick tangent, for one setting, I had lycanthropy as a genetic bridge that allowed hybrids. So all half orcs had to be weresomethings (and the parents had to be the same breed of something).

As for hybrid vigor, I am considering a fantastic variation of it, one where certain hybrids are stronger (however you want to define that) than their parents. I was just wondering how others might include it.

How does all this affect religion and the gods that claim to have created such creatures whole cloth?

And how do half orcs, half dragons and half illithids fit into that?

 

[Aeolius]

And how do half orcs, half dragons and half illithids fit into that?

I always envisioned the genesis of half-orcs thusly:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbXzpoH6m2c]YouTube - ‪The Muppet Show: Koozebanian Mating Ritual‬‏[/ame]

 

[Ultimatecalibur]

No. Hybrid vigor is not, "the child is superior to both parents in all ways, for all hybrid children." It is mostly about removing the impact of recessive genes, which can build up in genetically narrow strains.

So, for example, one breed of dogs may be highly prone to cancer, and another breed prone to certain forms of heart disease. A cross between them may have neither problem, so the hybrid is more vigorous than either parent.

To analogize, then - if both orcs and humans are narrow genetic pools, and the strength of both are being "held back" by a recessive gene, then a cross may be stronger than both parents. I'm not sure either race has been presented as being narrowly bred to have this effect be likely, though.

You are partially correct. You are correct that hybrid vigor does not always happen, and hybrids being averages of their parents or even weaker than their parents happens just as much, but you are wrong on why it happens. Heterosis does not need narrow gene pools that have recessive genes 'holding things back.' All it requires is different gene pools.

Sometimes its the removal of a dominant limiter gene. This is one theory on why male Ligers (male lion/female tiger) get so big.

Sometimes its different genes from each pool that when expressed together combo really well.

And sometimes its, as you said, the removal of recessive that are holding things back.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

That might explain why in 4e half-elves get a Con bonus. Elves used to get a Con penalty.

However, if two species are too widely separated, then the hybrids might be sterile, weak or even nonviable. This kind of thing played a role in the webcomic Errant Story. In that setting, elves breed very slowly, and I don't think it's directly related to their longer lifespan. Upon encountering humanity, for a while a craze of elf/human crosses swept Elflands because elves were much more likely to have children with humans. Unfortunately, birth defects were common, including various mental problems.

Wait wait... if you're applying genetics to D&D, you're only going to find madness.

Are you going to start modifying pcs' stats based on their parents? Are orcs and humans the same species, that they interbreed so easily?

Or subspecies? Or maybe half-orcs are rare, because post-zygotic unions are less common than with either parent race (in addition to the pre-zygotic barrier, eg most humans find most orcs ugly, and possibly vice versa).

(Yes, different species in the same genus can cross, see horse/donkey/mule. You can even have species chains, where there's a chain of subspecies across half the globe, but subspecies on different ends of the chain cannot breed.)

What about demons and dragons and their infamous ability to cross with anything? Or trolls? What sort of genes does a demon contribute to its half-fiend offspring?

Magic. And see Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex for a variety of problems with powerful races crossing with "puny humans".

How does all this affect religion and the gods that claim to have created such creatures whole cloth?

I don't think people in a DnD setting are likely to know about genetics. But if they did... picture Charles Darwin being in trouble with the church. Now imagine if priests could literally Flame Strike people who upset them. So I don't see geneticists lasting very long, at least not in public.

 

[S'mon]

Until 3e, Half Orcs' stats including the STR bonus DID indicate hybrid vigour, IMO. With 3e the PHB stats still looked that way with the +2 STR, after all 1e-2e Orcs' average STR was 12 per the 1e DMG, until Skip Williams had a brainfart and gave regular 3e Orcs a ridiculous +4 STR.

Hybrid vigour arises because the 1st generation half-breed is unlikely to have any recessive alleles manifest. Later generations don't have that benefit, but OTOH they may get 2 copies of a beneficial trait - eg blue eyes, if considered good, from one parent race will only show up in the 2nd+ generation of the mixed-race. So full-blood Elf stat bonuses & penalties could show up in later generations of half-elves.