Guns in a fantasy setting

Pozatronic

First Post
I'm wondering how the evolution of ballistic weapons would come about in a world filled with magic, something along the lines of Eberron, where magic has supplemented technology. I'm brewing up a setting for personal use, and I'm going to be taking a lot out of Eberron, but I'm wondering what the world would look like if it had more of a late 19th century feel to it. Six guns, gattling guns, tank mounted cannons and various and sundry, but with a different evolutionary process. I know Iron Kingdoms had a lot of this, but I don't own it and I'm not dropping that much money for a used book (or any book, for that matter). I ordered Secrets of Zir'an, because that setting seems to emulate a lot of what I'm looking for, but i do plan on using d20 rules for this. Maybe True20, but I have to purchase it first.

Does anybody out there have an ideas they'd like to throw my way. Some of the most creative people seem to be on these boards, so any input would be sweet. Thanks.

(Edit: I originally wrote 18th century. Fixed it.)
 
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It's very possible that even with Magic being more studied than the sciences in fantasy worlds, gunpowder and other sidearms would eventually be found.

I wrote a sidebar and had Gary Gygax embellish it in Living Fantasy, where we bring up the subject of why most fantasy settings have no guns.

The problem with the sidearm is that it changes things significantly in a setting that has it. Realistically, the thing that gunpowder did was make it a lot easier for untrained peasants to easilly be formed into militias. A gun is point and shoot--it takes practice but no where near the same amount of training it took to use a longbow, a lance, a crossbow, etc--or in a fantasy setting anyone who uses magic. The existence of cannons made the standard Castle/Fortress undefendable as well, forcing the Polyhedronal model, and neutralized the effectiveness of most armor.

While Magic would alter a pure historical setting, it's not likely as much to change culture, and fits into Feudal Classes. Mages are at least as specialized as Historical Clerics, Sages, and Knights or Archers. The average man couldn't be a mage--it takes a lot of training to become one. And that's assuming the Gygaxian standard of mages being akin to specialized guilds that helped with society--if magic is rarer in your campaign world, it would have even less effect on society.

So, it's possible to have firearms, but to have a sense of realism adding firearms would change the world as it did in history, and put an end to the typical quasi-european setting. Which is why you got the "gunpowder is unstable around magic/doesn't explode on this world" type of explaination in various games.

This Wikipedia article is a good start. Extrapolate from that and see what would happen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder_warfare
 

One of the supplements for 2e was a campaign setting(?) called "Red Steel", and it was a sorta musketeers-like setting with red steel, red stuff which gave people mutations and red powder which was gunpower all interlinked into the setting. It seemed like a fun idea.

I could easily see gunpowder being an alchemical product.

I could also see a situation (dare I mention it?) like in "Priest Kings of Gor" where the secret rulers of the world kept an eye out for gunpowder development and annihilated anyone who made any progress because they knew that ultimately it would lead to developments that threaten their power. I could imagine a cabal of wizards or priests doing the same kind of thing in a D&D world, to maintain the balance of power.

You could even set up a situation with martial rebels fighting against arcane and divine foes who seek gunpowder to equalise the odds a little.

Cheers
 

I know Iron Kingdoms had a lot of this, but I don't own it and I'm not dropping that much money for a used book (or any book, for that matter).

The Iron Kingdoms firearm rules are available as a download from the privateer press website. Two other systems include Freeports rules, and Monte Cook came up with a technology PDF to go along with his Chaositech PDF - I think the technology PDF might even be free as well.
 

Plane Sailing has good ideas.

I could also see a world with guns but guns scrictly controlled. Fantasy worlds don't usually have concepts of weapon control by the state in modern times, at least amongst the gentry.

Perhaps with magic guns are a lot more accurate, akin to the accuracy of our modern weapons, but they are kept under strict control, with only knights having access to them. Maybe owning a "smokerod" would be akin to owning a Katana in Japan.

Another possibility would be to have an isolated state on a campaign world with higher (mechanical) technology, and it starts trickling down to the other states. For instance, using 4e as a base, say a continent away a state of Warforged and Dwarves have the near Victorian "Steampunk" levels of technology, but are isolationist. The other states don't have the secret of gunpowder, but some rich and powerful people can buy (or steal/smuggle) weapons into other states. That would keep the technology rare and under control but allow you leeway to slowly integrate these items.
 

I'm actually going to be doing a Secret of Zir'An game tomorrow.

I've also run a d20 game for the past year that's had magitech firearms in it.

Can guns work in a d20 (or other fantasy) game? Sure. Note I said "guns", not just "firearms". It's something to think about. The thing I've noticed anytime gunpowder seems to come up in the fantasy context is a lot of contention about how it'd completely change the world or just wouldn't be possible because "realistically" blah blah blah.

Stuff that noise.

Do you want guns? Then decide how they function. In my personal opinion you can certainly have pure "magitech" guns which are basically firing energy bolts. Or you can have "firearms" which are relying on a little bit of science (or pseudo-science) in order to kind of "start" things, and then magic which directs and controls it.

Or you can have something like gunpowder having been inadvertantly created by an alchemist. Instead of developing a lot of other supporting science, metallurgy, and all that other stuff, they simply use magic to hold it all together. So basically they pour a bunch of powder into the weapon, and set it off. Ordinarily it'd just explode, but thanks to the runes and other bits, it instead propels a projectile.

Messing around with stuff like gunpowder/firearms can lead down the rather nasty road of "realism". I say "nasty" because at the end of the day, you're playing a game and it's set in a fantasy world. Which means it's not going to be realistic. As you strive for realism, it starts to spread it's tendrils and start going into all kinds of crazy directions.

My game, it had the magitech energy bolts, as well as "thunder guns". The thunder gun isn't actually using gunpowder though. Instead, the projectile has runes carved upon it. When energy is spent, the projectile (it looks like a musket ball) leaves the barrel so rapidly, there's a void of air left behind which creates the thundering sound that the weapon is named for. The weapon itself has 6 barrels which are manually rotated in order to bring the proper barrel into alignment for the energy conduit to launch the projectile.

Your biggest problem is likely going to be damage. How do you handle it? You're going to have to make a choice, and that choice is going to bother at least _some_ people.

If you give it equivalent damage to a bow/sword, you're going to annoy the group that feels the weapons should be so superior to the "archaic" weapons.

If you give it better damage, you're just causing people to ask "Why would anyone ever use another weapon unless they were forced to?" You're also going to have to potentially deal with a cascade of armor issues and other bits.

The game I ran had the weapons operating on the same level as swords and bows. Essentially it was more of a "special effect" than a matter of superior weaponry. Of course, clever players will be able to use special effects to their advantage as well. I wouldn't sweat it personally, and in fact I didn't sweat it.

The choice between the magitech and bows was a bit of a tactical one for the players. The weapons did have their own magic source, but it has to be recharged _from_ someone. So if they're recharging their weapon, it meant they weren't able to cast spells or use other abilities that also used energy.

Bows on the other hand, you just buy more arrows. No muss, no fuss.

Thunder guns have the issue of the ammo. You either have to carry a bunch of replacement shot, or you have to try and track down the used projectile and hope it's in a condition to be re-used (just like with arrows/bolts).

If you're looking for some ideas, you should try and pick up "Arsenal" from Perpetrated Press. It's pretty easy to find it online, and cheap too. They've got some good ideas for magitech weapons and how to handle guns in a fantasy setting.

Oh, and good choice on picking up Secret of Zir'An. :D It's not without its share of quirks, but no game is perfect.
 

I also remember that if you're looking for a "pure high magic as technology" setting that doesn't have anything "steampunk", you might want to try this old (Basic) D&D supplement, Principles of Glantri

http://paizo.com/store/downloads/wizardsOfTheCoast/classicDAndD/mystara/v5748btpy7mxg

I remember they had a lot of colleges, magic higher than virtually any other state on the planet, and "magic as tech", including a Dragonfly-shaped ship that could shoot magic missles akin to a machine gun and a fireball cannon.
 

Perhaps Magic and Science/Alchemy are such at odds that they have problems affecting each other directly...

Think of it somewhat like how Green Lanterns can't directly affect the color yellow, but instead must figure out "work-arounds" on the fly.

Gunpowder would be "The Equalizer"- a non-magical weapon that couldn't be directly affected by magic. IOW, a mage couldn't just ruin someone's gunpowder with a water-producing spell, he'd have to dump whatever the gunpowder into non-magical water in some way.

And yes, that would make cabals of gunpowder hating mages much more likely, and alchemists who make it an endangered species.

In such a world, the secret of gunpowder could be something that gets discovered and lost repeatedly throughout history. It could even be such an important part of history that it causes great upheavals. Imagine a world where gunpowder enables mundane armies to slough off the yoke of magical tyrants...only to have mages reassert their hold on the world, and systematically causing the expunging of any mention of gunpowder from the historical record.

"Yes, the Mage-King Arphomet's empire fell...but it was because the Usurper made a pact with a large force of minor smoke & fire demons. Why? Do you think there was some other cause?"

You might also want to check out Terry Brooks' Shannara books for the Druid Cogline- he studied the old sciences and knew how to make "black powder" a.k.a. gunpowder to you and me.

http://shannara.wikia.com/wiki/Cogline
 

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