D&D (2024) Greyhawk- New Map, Discussion of Changes

[Snarf Zagyg]

In my thread about Greyhawk, I realized that I didn't have a lot to say. Because ... I'm relatively happy. Go figure! I kept expecting that I would have a LOT to say about the Greyhawk announcement, but ... nope.

However, one topic did come up. WoTC has released the new map of Greyhawk! Now, it's not as "magical" as the Darlene Map, but it's nice. I hope that it's as magical and evocative for new gamers as the Darlene Map was for me, and starts many a wondrous adventure.

That said, the new map ... it does have some changes. I wanted to break out the changes into a separate thread and discussion. Also, h/t to @Parmandur for first posting the new map, and to @AdmundfortGeographer for starting the list. Also, credit to Mike Schley for creating the map!

Following is the new map, and please use the thread for discussion. If I see anything in the comments, I will try and update the list in this post noting changes/additions/subtractions.

List of Changes

Paynims to Plains of the Ulakandar
Tiger Nomads to Chakyik
Wolf Nomads to Wegwuir
Blackmoor to Arn
Rovers of the Barrens to The Huntinglands
Frost Barbarians to North Kingdom of the Frutzi
Ice Barbarians to North Kingdom of Cruski
Snow Barbarians to North Kingdom of the Schnai
North Province to Aerdiaak
South Province removed, only Ahlissa
Glorioles to Hestmark Peaks
Scarlet Brotherhood to Shar
Shibboleth to Froghome
Sea Barons to Sea Baronies
Medegia changed from a See
Nulbish added as a city, and Rel Reven and Kalstrand removed (Great Kingdom/Ahlissa)
Resetenford added as a city (Spindrift isles)
Ungara Batan removed as a city/capital.
Ekbir has gone from Caliphate to Sultanate


Map additions (adventure locations, etc.)

White Plume Mountain
Ghost Tower of Inverness
Tomb of Horrors
Temple of Elemental Evil
Caverns of Tsojcanth

 

[Parmandur]

I am very curious to see how this excellent map intersects with the text. We have been a promised a "compelte" Setting, but clearly Greyhawk is not going to get exhaustive detail in one DMG chapter. The map is detailed enough that I hope we get a wide array of hooks to develop out, at least, similar to the original Folio itself.

We also know this map will have an isometric presentation of the Free City of Greyhawk on the reverse side, and Perkins has promised that the DMG will provide everything to allow for using the city as a primary campaign hub.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

So I will start with the first observation. The majority of the changes appear to be cosmetic changes to make sure that the ... things that have not aged as well ... are renamed.

This would be things like-
The Barbarians / Nomads / Rovers given more appropriate names.
Specific religious references changed (See, Caliphate, Shibboleth)

Other may have been changed because, um .... shut up Beavis-
Glorioles to Hestmark Peaks

Specific adventure locations have been added, which I ... don't know? And cities (Restenford) added that are adventure locations).

The ... secret society has been removed from the map and replaced with the name of its nominal country.

There has been some reworking around the Great Kingdom.

Finally, Blackmoor has become Arn(eson). Which I think it appropriate.

 

[Parmandur]

The majority of the changes appear to be cosmetic changes to make sure that the ... things that have not aged as well ... are renamed.

This would be things like-
The Barbarians / Nomads / Rovers given more appropriate names.

Honestly, I think one of the most interesting part about these is...Gygax already provided the more appropriate endonyms (at least in the 1983 text, dunno about the Folio), so they didn't need to make anything up on that front.

Going out on a limb, I doubt thst the presentation in the DMG will even think about replicating the "in-universe" biased writer that Gygax was using as a device, giving more of a this-world "objective" presentation preciaely because of stuff like that.

Also a bit of a note...the Bone Marches are still the Bone Marches.

 

[Parmandur]

Cross posting a bit from the other thread, just to emphasize how oddball this is to me:

There are seven named famous Dungeons located on the map, many of whi h were noy there on the original:

White Plume Mountain
Ghost Tower of Inverness
Tomb of Horrors
Temple of Elemental Evil
Maure Castle
Castle Greyhawk
Caverns of Tsojcanth

White Plume Mountain and Tomb of Horrors were printed for 5E in Tales from the Yawning in Portal in full form...but this map doesn't have any indications for Against the Giants, The Sunless Citadel, Forges of Fury, or The Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan...all of which had places on this map as originally printed.

Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth is about to be published for 5E in Quests from the Infinite Staircase...but there is no indication on the map for where the Starship in Expedition to the Barrier Peaks crashed, or for the two UK modules being printed that I can see.

There have been no WotC 5E publications whatsoever for Castle Maure, Ghost Tower of Iverness, the Temple of Elemental Evil (PotA was an homage, and the Goodman Games version is out of print) or most especially Cadtle Greyhawk.

So this particular set of 7 Dungeons is exceedingly strange. Whether this is just a collection of Eaater Eggs, or tying into something in the text of the DMG, is IMO the biggest mystery of this map qua map.

@LaTia J you could get serious mileage out of teasing this stuff.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

There have been no WotC 5E publications whatsoever for Castle Maure, Ghost Tower of Iverness, the Temple of Elemental Evil (PotA was an homage, and the Goodman Games version is out of print) or most especially Cadtle Greyhawk.

I agree, but I will add (and I had forgotten this until I cross-checked with my old and tattered map) that both Castle Greyhawk and Castle Maure are on the original. So that could just be fidelity to the original- the new map also includes the "ruins" in the same areas.

 

[Parmandur]

I agree, but I will add (and I had forgotten this until I cross-checked with my old and tattered map) that both Castle Greyhawk and Castle Maure are on the original. So that could just be fidelity to the original- the new map also includes the "ruins" in the same areas.

Were there different iterations of Darlene's map? Castle Greyhawk doesn't appear on my DMsGuild copy of the 1983 box set:

Though, yeah, very possible it could just be Easter Eggs...but then why these sprcific Dungeons, and nothing about the Giants, The crashed Stsrship, the Hideen Shrine, the Sunless Citadel, the Forge of Fury, etc...?

It's interesting, at least.

 

[Hussar]

I know that's not the Darlene map and nothing will ever be my first true love of fantasy maps.

But GODDAMN that's a pretty map. Mr. Schley absolutely knocked that out of the park.

 

[Parmandur]

I know that's not the Darlene map and nothing will ever be my first true love of fantasy maps.

But GODDAMN that's a pretty map. Mr. Schley absolutely knocked that out of the park.

Schley never phones it in.

 

[Yaarel]

However, one topic did come up. WoTC has released the new map of Greyhawk! Now, it's not as "magical" as the Darlene Map, but it's nice. I hope that it's as magical and evocative for new gamers as the Darlene Map was for me, and starts many a wondrous adventure.

My impression is, the Darlene map was immediately popular, but the artistic genius of Darlene was recognized in hindsight by the maps staying power.

Tiger Nomads to Chakyik
Wolf Nomads to Wegwuir

I love these changes to Chakyik and Wegwuir. They feel like endonyms rather than exonyms, and this is the approach I prefer for exploring cultures. Chakyik to me sounds vaguely like a Canadian Indigenous name.

Blackmoor to Arn

Glad the "ruins of Blackmoor" are gone. But I would love the town of Blackmoor, alive and well, be somewhere around here ... exactly on the southwest corner of the peninsula coast.

Rovers of the Barrens to The Huntinglands

Frost Barbarians to North Kingdom of the Frutzi
Ice Barbarians to North Kingdom of Cruski
Snow Barbarians to North Kingdom of the Schnai

Happy with the "de-barbarianization" of Nordic cultures.

It is weird to say "North Kingdom", because it implies there is a "South Kingdom", where there is none. Maybe, the "North" here means "of the Northerners", which is basically what Norse (Norroenir) and Nordic means. In other words, the "North" is a proper name for a region, the Northern World, something like referring to the "West" in the sense of the Western World.

The spelling of the names Frutzi and Schnai look too German and too exonymic. Examples of Norsesque indigenous spellings would be:

• Snae
• Frost
• Hrimsk

The lands actually relate to Viking trade with the Americas:
• Baffin Island (Helluland)
• Newfoundland and Quebec (Markland)
• Greenland (Groenland)

The famous Vínland, apparently Massachusetts, would approximate Aerdiaak (formerly North Province) on the Greyhawk map.

The actual Norsesque region is on the eastern side of the Solnor Ocean. It can be seen on the map of planet Oerth, in the coastlands around the "Jotnumheim Sea". The area of the Darlene map is the far north east on the Oerth map.

Scarlet Brotherhood to Shar

Hugely glad this hategroup is gone or at least downplayed.

Sea Barons to Sea Baronies

I guess that makes more sense.

Medegia changed from a See
Nulbish added as a city, and Rel Reven and Kalstrand removed (Great Kingdom/Ahlissa)
Resetenford added as a city (Spindrift isles)
Prelacy of Almor added as a country, with Chathold as the capital.
Ungara Batan removed as a city/capital.
Ekbir has gone from Caliphate to Sultanate


Map additions (adventure locations, etc.)

White Plume Mountain
Ghost Tower of Inverness
Tomb of Horrors
Temple of Elemental Evil
Caverns of Tsojcanth