D&D 5E Greater Flurry of Blows

[Xeviat]

Hi everyone,

I'm going to preface this by saying that I haven't had the luxury of seeing a monk in high level play, so take everything with a small pinch of salt.

Half of playing D&D, for me, is modifying things. I've done it since my 3rd or 4th session of 3E when the barbarian was outshining the ranger at almost everything. I also don't like for a character's role to drastically change in the game without its player making a choice.

The high level monk currently worries me. It seems that all of the other non-primary spellcasters get something at or around level 11 to boost them up. Barbarians start getting Brutal Critical and get like an etra round of fighting. Fighters get a 3rd attack. Paladins get to add radiant damage to all their hits. Rangers get multi-attacks or extra beast attacks, Rogues keep on getting sneak attacks (they're my ideal, as they grow smoothly). Heck, even warlocks and other casters get a cantrip buff.

Monks get another +1 damage per attack (compared to the Paladin's +1d8) and either 1/day sanctuary, limited invisibility (could be used offensively for advantage), or some 3rd level spells known (and no extra ki to cast them). Your amount of Ki is so high that you could flurry on every single attack and still have plenty left over for more.

At 2nd level, the monk is doing something like 1d8+3+1d4+3+1d4+3 (18.5) for 1 ki point (or 1d8+3+1d4+3 without; or 13) compared to a fighter's 2d6*+3 (11.3, plus 1 surge) or a rogue's 2d6+3+1d6 (13.5) constant (plus maybe assassinate). They're all pretty even.

At 11th level, the monk is at (1d8+5)*4 (38) with 1 ki (28.5 without), compared to the fighter's (2d6*+5)*3 (40) or a rogue's 1d6+5+1d6+6d6 (33). The monk is now a smidge behind the fighter, even when spending a resource, while the fighter still has their surge to fall back on.

My thought was adding a new option to Ki at or around 11th level (possibly shift some things around; the "improved unarmored movement" at 9th level is pretty minor). Something like this:

Improved Flurry of Blows
Immediately after you take the Attack action on your turn, you can spend 1 ki point to make three unarmed strikes as a bonus action.

I have it costing 3, instead of just 2, so that it is less efficient. I'd want Monks doing something other than stunning fist with every single attack. But would this just make them nova and dump all of their Ki even faster?

Thanks for your thoughts. How do mid level monks play? Do players seem to mind their role shifting from a damage dealer to a crowd controller? Or do mid level monks still dish out the damage?

 

[Valetudo]

When all you talk about is dpr, it shows you dont understand the monk. You need to stop white rooming the class and actually play it before changing it. The monk is good as is, elemental subclass might need a little twerk, but the core class is tight.

 

[nswanson27]

I think what you say is reasonable. Won't break anything.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

It seems like you are taking the monk to be some sort of striker class, and that's why you're comparing it to a fighter with a greatsword, instead of seeing it is a utility/control class more akin to a tank. The monk isn't supposed to be all about damage; it's supposed to get where it needs to go, to hit the important targets (hopefully to stun them), which is why they don't hit quite as hard as a fighter with a greatsword.

If a monk could hit as hard as a striker, while maintaining such resilience and mobility, it would put the other melee strikers out of business.

 

[Staffan]

I'm not sure an extra attack is what's needed, but you have a point in that the monk is missing something cool at level 11. Most classes get some sort of significant power-up when entering third tier: third attack for the fighter, 6th level spells for casters, Improved Divine Smite for paladins, Reliable Talent for rogues, some version of multi-attack for rangers, and Relentless Rage for barbarians. Not all of these are direct damage increases, but they're all pretty nifty. I'm not sure the Tradition abilities the monks get at level 11 qualify.

But I'm not sure the monk needs more damage, per se. I think something to do with mobility or defense would be more appropriate. Or, if you want to combine them, give them an ability that lets them combine the extra attack granted by Martial Arts with either Patient Defense or Step of the Wind (or Flurry of Blows, if you want to increase their damage as well) in a single bonus action.

 

[Sacrosanct]

When all you talk about is dpr, it shows you dont understand the monk. You need to stop white rooming the class and actually play it before changing it. The monk is good as is, elemental subclass might need a little twerk, but the core class is tight.

Exactly this. I've played monks, and enjoyed them in 5e. Whenever I see someone compare a monk to a fighter in regards to DPR, I shake my head. For one, the fighter is supposed to have a higher DPR than most classes, because that's what they do. Secondly, it completely discounts all the other things a monk can do that a fighter can't, especially on the mobility and avoiding getting hit bit.

It's almost like there's this assumption that every class should have the same DPR as every other class or something needs to be fixed. It's a weird mind set I can't get my head around, because there are three pillars to the game, and even if it were just one (combat), there are a lot of things that go into combat other than DPR

I'm not sure an extra attack is what's needed, but you have a point in that the monk is missing something cool at level 11. Most classes get some sort of significant power-up when entering third tier: third attack for the fighter, 6th level spells for casters, Improved Divine Smite for paladins, Reliable Talent for rogues, some version of multi-attack for rangers, and Relentless Rage for barbarians. Not all of these are direct damage increases, but they're all pretty nifty. I'm not sure the Tradition abilities the monks get at level 11 qualify..

Monks do get something cool at level 11: their subclass feature. Turning invisible, or having access to greater elemental spells, etc are all pretty significant things.

 

[Xeviat]

It seems like you are taking the monk to be some sort of striker class ...

My thinking was that the monk can be played as a striker at low levels. They have the option to use their ki for defense or offense. Later, it seems that they use their ki to just keep up damage-wise. I'd like those options to still be there, and not automatically go full on controller/tank.



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[Valetudo]

My thinking was that the monk can be played as a striker at low levels. They have the option to use their ki for defense or offense. Later, it seems that they use their ki to just keep up damage-wise. I'd like those options to still be there, and not automatically go full on controller/tank.



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Yes they can work as strikers at low levels. The thing about monks is the higher level they get, the more versatile they become. They get alot of ki points which gives them alot of ways to do things. Do you need him to tank, he can doge while still attacking. He has dex as primary stat so he can use a shortbow or xbow when needed. He has alot of movement and some subclasses give him teleport or flight I believe. He is a stunlocker. He has alot of attacks so he can get a decent crit average. He gets some good defenses and saves. And he still puts out a respective dpr.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Yes they can work as strikers at low levels. The thing about monks is the higher level they get, the more versatile they become. They get alot of ki points which gives them alot of ways to do things. Do you need him to tank, he can doge while still attacking. He has dex as primary stat so he can use a shortbow or xbow when needed. He has alot of movement and some subclasses give him teleport or flight I believe. He is a stunlocker. He has alot of attacks so he can get a decent crit average. He gets some good defenses and saves. And he still puts out a respective dpr.

I would argue that being able to bounce all over the map and stunlock up to 4 targets every round is much better than any DPR out there.

 

[Valetudo]

I would argue that being able to bounce all over the map and stunlock up to 4 targets every round is much better than any DPR out there.

well Im not arguing that. They dont have the ki points at low levels to do that consistently. More like in small bursts. Im saying their role in the party expands as they grow in levels. Where as the fighters role basically stays the same for the most part, except for maybe the EK, who can add a couple utility spells.