Grapple (Multiple Grapplers)

[doktorstick]

The PHB pg. 138 notes that depending on the size categories of the actors involved, multiple opponents can grapple you. Then it states "Additional enemies can aid their friends with the aid another action." The section does not say how to adjudicate multiple grapplers unless the "additional enemies" means the other grapplers.

a) In the example where 4 goblins and 1 ogre could grapple you, does one grapple and the other 4 do the aid another action?

b) Does each enemy make a grapple check (5 in total) to see if you are grappled?

c) Does the "additional enemies" statement refer to the 6 orcs standing by that are "aiding" the 5 grapples giving each a +12?

Thanks.

/ds

 

[kreynolds]

a) In the example where 4 goblins and 1 ogre could grapple you, does one grapple and the other 4 do the aid another action?

If they want to. Or, if the goblins are brave enough, they can try to just grapple you like normal, and because you are already being grappled, you can't take an AoO on them for trying to start another grapple with you, and their grab automatically succeeds.

Their second option is to just use the Aid Another action, which would give their Ogre friend a +8 bonus to his grapple check, assuming the goblins go before the Ogre, and assuming they all hit AC 10.

Aid Another isn't restricted to increasing your ally's attack roll bonus or AC bonus. It can even be used to help someone break something. It's pretty cool.

b) Does each enemy make a grapple check (5 in total) to see if you are grappled?

Only if they want to actually grapple, but they don't need to if all they want to do is use the Aid Another action.

a) In the example where 4 goblins and 1 ogre could grapple you, does one grapple and the other 4 do the aid another action?

Yes. But if they want, they can just grapple you.

c) Does the "additional enemies" statement refer to the 6 orcs standing by that are "aiding" the 5 grapples giving each a +12?

Uhhhhh....I didn't quite catch that. Wording was a bit weird. I'll try to answer it anyway. Using the example of 4 goblins and 1 ogre, and the ogre is grappling you, "additional enemies" refers to goblins, who can try to grapple you as well, or they can use the Aid Another action to help the ogre.

 

[doktorstick]

Re: Re: Grapple (Multiple Grapplers)

Uhhhhh....I didn't quite catch that. Wording was a bit weird. I'll try to answer it anyway. Using the example of 4 goblins and 1 ogre, and the ogre is grappling you, "additional enemies" refers to goblins, who can try to grapple you as well, or they can use the Aid Another action to help the ogre.

You got it. I thought that the additional enemies were those that were able to grapple you, but wasn't sure if it was a requirement on multiple grapplers (meaning they aided in the attempt and not actually doing the grapple). Does this mean the 6 orcs with 10' spears can not "aid another" in the grapple attempt? I guess so.

Two other questions:

If 8 goblins were trying to bring down a big, strong fighter, they wouldn't want to each make a grapple check--individual they would fail either by the grapple check or the "to hit".

Would the +2 from aid be included in the grapple check? Probably not. So, aid another is out. The goblin may be able to "hit" the fighter, but he can't get a hold.

How would this work? IMO, a mob can overcome a much tougher opponent.

/ds

 

[kreynolds]

Re: Re: Re: Grapple (Multiple Grapplers)

Does this mean the 6 orcs with 10' spears can not "aid another" in the grapple attempt? I guess so.

Yes, the Orcs can aid another. As long as you threaten the bad guy, you can help your friend with the aid another action.

If 8 goblins were trying to bring down a big, strong fighter, they wouldn't want to each make a grapple check--individual they would fail either by the grapple check or the "to hit".

Probably.

Would the +2 from aid be included in the grapple check?

No. Only the attack roll to hit the target, unless of course the grapple had already been started, then the +2 would help the next grapple check.

The goblin may be able to "hit" the fighter, but he can't get a hold.

Which is why goblins shouldn't try to grapple really strong fighters. Remember the scene in the beginning of LotR with that big black-armored guy smashing people dozens of yards away in waves? There ya' go.

How would this work? IMO, a mob can overcome a much tougher opponent.

Not in DnD. You have to threaten an area to Aid Another. Furthermore, you must be within melee range to start a grapple. A medium-size fighter can only be grappled by 8 goblins at a time. Let me tell you, 8 goblins are not gonna cut it, and in truth, a 20th level fighter can stand in the middle of a mob of grappling goblins all day and just hack them down.

Logically, though the system doesn't support it, eventually the fighter will get tired and then he'll be overwhelmed. But that's an outcome that the DM has to explain to the player.

 

[Artoomis]

If 8 goblins are attempting to grapple a high level fighter, they just might be successful.

First, you only have one actually grapple, the other use Aid Another - so that the one attempting to grapple does so at +14

Second, the intial attack is a touch attack, so that will almost certainly succeed.

Opposed grapple checks at +14? The goblins will win most of those. Against a high level opponent, the main attacking goblin needs some fighter levels to pull this off, but that seems reasonable.

I realize that the main giblin has a -4 on his grapple check for size, but that is easily offset by the help of the others and a few levels of fighter.

This neatly approximates a mob bringing you down, while preserving the fact that really legendary heroes can survive even a mob. There is no "mob" rule in 3e, this is as close as it gets.

 

[kreynolds]

Opposed grapple checks at +14?

Nope. If 7 goblins use aid another to help the 8th goblin hit the fighter to try and grab him, that's it, the +14 bonus is gone, used up. When he starts the grapple check, that's a whole different check and doesn't even involve the original attack or it's bonuses. Furthermore, the other 7 goblins can't start another Aid Another action, because it's not their turn.

You can use aid another to help your friend hit someone. Well, the 8th goblin already did that. He used the bonus to hit the fighter. Bonus gone.

I don't believe the bonus would apply to both the attack roll and the grapple check as well.

 

[Artoomis]

Aid another [Standard][AoO: No]

Description: If a combatant threatens an opponent with which an ally is engaged in melee combat, the combatant can attempt to aid the ally as a standard action. The combatant makes an attack roll against AC 10. If the combatant succeeds, the combatant's ally gains either a +2 circumstance bonus to attack that opponent or a +2 circumstance bonus to AC against that opponent (the combatant's choice).

Note that the circumstance bonus is NOT to a single attack, it is against that opponent. That would include the attack roll AND grapple checks, or multiple attack rolls for someone attacking with multiple attacks.

Which makes sense - the characters aiding the attacker have given up their actions for the round.

By the way - I'd only allow "Aid Another" to work if you stay threatening the opponent - so you could move and Aid Another, but Aid Another and then moving away doesn't really make sense. While okay strictly by the rules, it fails the common sense test.

 

[kreynolds]

Note that the circumstance bonus is NOT to a single attack

Really? emphasis mine...

Aid another [Standard][AoO: No]

Description: If a combatant threatens an opponent with which an ally is engaged in melee combat, the combatant can attempt to aid the ally as a standard action. The combatant makes an attack roll against AC 10. If the combatant succeeds, the combatant's ally gains either a +2 circumstance bonus to attack that opponent or a +2 circumstance bonus to AC against that opponent (the combatant's choice).

How else do you interpret that? Do you see it as a bonus to ALL attacks made by the combatant that round? If so, then I could see the logic that the bonus would also apply to the grapple check.

 

[Artoomis]

...the combatant's ally gains either a +2 circumstance bonus to attack that opponent...

Not:

...the combatant's ally gains either a +2 circumstance bonus to [a single] attack [against] that opponent...

Also note that

...+2 circumstance bonus to AC against that opponent...

is not limited to a single attack roll either.

How to you read into this that the bonus applies to a single attack roll only?

 

[kreynolds]

How to you read into this that the bonus applies to a single attack roll only?

I don't. I'm just not sure that the bonus to the attack would carry over to the grapple check.

It didn't say...

...the combatant's ally gains either a +2 circumstance bonus to attack that opponent, as well as grapples in case you make one...

Now, like I said, I can understand the logic that maybe the circumstance bonus would also apply to the grapple, but I'm not sure that it's meant to.