Grapple check, and tied!

[aliensex]

OK, here's a situation. An Otyugh is grappling a wizard. I (the DM) roll freakin crappy on the grapple check, and now the wizard and Otyugh have a tied result!

My question is, how to resolve this? I insta-ruled it to make opposed strength checks to break the tie (which the Otyugh ended up winning). I'm not really happy with that, as it is close to just doing another grapple check anyways. What is the proper way to handle a grapple check tie?

 

[Antikinesis]

For opposed checks, we treat it much like any other action requiring a check. The actor (in this case, the one trying to grapple) needs a roll that meets or beats a difficulty class. In this case, the DC is set by the defender's (the wizard's) opposed grapple check.

[Edit] This means that, IMC, a tie goes to the aggressor in a grapple check. [/Edit]

I'm not aware of an explicit rule on the subject, so we might be in house-rule territory here.

-AK

 

[Stalker0]

That's exactly right, the attacker wins the tie.

 

[Pielorinho]

That's not how we ruled it; although the rules are ambiguous for grapple checks, we use the rules for opposed skill checks:

VS. Opposed Checks
Some skill checks are opposed checks. They are made against a randomized number, which is usually another character's skill check result. Whoever gets the higher result wins the contest.
For ties on opposed checks, the character with the higher key ability score wins.
If these scores are the same, flip a coin.

I'm guessing the otyugh had the higher strength, so it should've won.

This comes up most often in rolling for initiative; again, if two folks roll the same initiative, we give preference to the person with the highest dex. As a house rule, if the folks have the same dex, we'll give preference to the person with improved init; if neither or both folks have improved initiative, we'll allow them to work out between themselves who goes first; if they can't work it out, only then will we flip a coin.

Daniel

 

[aliensex]

I suppose that this is just another case of an opposed check, with the defender's result setting the DC for the attacker. Seems simple enough.

Pielorinho - the problem is that grapple checks don't just have one key ability, it relies on BAB, Strength, and size, so it would be hard to distinguish which one wins the tie. I suppose you would have to rank them first.

Thanks everyone

 

[trentonjoe]

Just to be the dissenting voice, we say the grapple check has to win. Often, the grappler is grappling because it is good at it. The defender many times isn't it. Just gives a little help to the underdog.

 

[Pielorinho]

Pielorinho - the problem is that grapple checks don't just have one key ability, it relies on BAB, Strength, and size, so it would be hard to distinguish which one wins the tie. I suppose you would have to rank them first.

Except that only one of those -- strength -- is actually an ability. The others have other rules-names.

If you're going to compare it to an opposed skill check, BAB is analogous to ranks in a skill, and size is analogous to a circumstance modifier. But you don't resolve ties on opposed skill checks according to who has the highest ranks or circumstance modifiers: you resolve them according to who has the highest key ability.

This also helps if someone is using an escape artist check to wriggle free from a grapple: in the case of a tie, the escaper's dex would be compared to the grappler's strength.

I think this is the clearest way in the rules to handle it.

Daniel

 

[Dash Dannigan]

I believe this is correct. The opposed check SETS the DC for the action (grapple, escape, etc.) attempted.

The Otyugh tries to grapple the wizard:
-Wizard rolls grapple check, setting the DC the Otyugh needs to grapple.
-Otyugh rolls grapple check and (as for ALL DC checks) must meet or beat the Wizards roll.

Wizard tries to escape the grapple with the Otyugh:
-Otyugh rolls its grapple check and sets the DC the wiazrd needs to escape the grapple.
-Wizard rolls grapple check and must meet or beat the DC to be successful.

edit- pretty much what antikinesis said (same thing)

 

[Pielorinho]

I believe this is correct. The opposed check SETS the DC for the action (grapple, escape, etc.) attempted.

Cite? I'm pretty sure the rules I cited above directly contradict you, as far as determining opposed checks in general; can you point to somewhere in the rules where grapple checks are handled differently from other opposed checks?

Daniel

 

[Dash Dannigan]

Not at the moment, though I will go and look. I do know however that the quote you cited Pielorinho refers to opposed skill checks, according to the PHB. Grapple checks are a different animal.

Let me get back to you and I'll see what I can find (if anything )

Cheers!