Going back to 2nd Edition Summon Monster Random Lists?

[Matafuego]

This weekend a question arised between my players. We were discussing 3.0 / 3.5 Summon Monster and comparing it to it's 2nd Edition counterpart.
Back in 2e the Monster Summoned was totally random and came from a table that had Orcs, Gnolls and even Dire Rats (a table for each level of the spell up to SM VIII since there was no SM IX).
Nowadays Summon Monster spells have in its levelled table "Templated" versions of animals and some Planar creatures (Archons/Elementals/Demons/...)

What would you think of a Summon Monster list that includes Orcs/Giants and the like again?

How would you feel if it was random too?

 

[MDSnowman]

The Short answer?

ACK NO!! NO RANDOM SUMMONINGS!!!

The Long answer?

I prefer summoning to be as customizable as possible. I think your problem is that you feel restricted by list in the PHB. I use those as guidelines as for what CR a creature you can summon with a particular spell. Hell you dont even need to guess anymore... in Dragon #302 they pretty much spell it out for you.

So you're casting Summon Monster V and don't want a boring Celestial Brown Bear? Then Summon a 4th Level Shadow Orc Barbarian. I like using the optional rules in the DMG where you summon a particular creature whenever you cast a particular Summon Monster spell. The big perk is if you actually summon your 4th level barbarian Shadow Orc via a Planar ally spell or the like you can permentally give them magical items.

If you hadn't guessed I'm really big on Summoning spells.

 

[Saeviomagy]

What would you think of a Summon Monster list that includes Orcs/Giants and the like again?

This bit works fine. If you balance the power levels, the only real difference is flavour.

How would you feel if it was random too?

That would suck. Summon monster isn't used that often as it is - if you made the summons random, noone would ever use the spell again, unless the creatures summoned were far more powerful than at present.

 

[BOZ]

i loved those old tables - one of the best features of 2E. and they had a way better table for reincarnation spell too.

 

[Crothian]

I liked the idea of the random table but it just made the spells too unpredicitble so we really never used them.

 

[Melan]

What would you think of a Summon Monster list that includes Orcs/Giants and the like again?

I'd love it. The less "Celestial Paragon Demi-Dire Space Badgers" appear, the better.

How would you feel if it was random too?

I'd like this change as well. Then again, I don't subscribe to the "game balance über alles" school of thought...

 

[shilsen]

I'd hate to use the random tables. I personally find summon spells to be even more useful outside combat if used creatively (summoning a creature with the specific spell-like abilities you need at a given moment, for example), and a random table would completely remove that possibility.

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

I quite agree with Shilsen.

I think it wouldn't make that much difference in combat, but would take away the non combat utility of the spell.

Expanding the selection to include orcs, giants and whatnot would be cool. Guess the main reason they aren't included in the core table is that you'd need to provide statblocks for them. Wheras monsters are already in the MM. If someone did that, I think it'd be great

Using the 2 levels lower = D4+1 monsters, you could even summon a mini adventuring party

 

[Holy Bovine]

I'd love it. The less "Celestial Paragon Demi-Dire Space Badgers" appear, the better.

Not that those creatures appear on any summon monster list I've ever seen. Is 'celestial badger' or 'dire rat' really that hard a concept to wrap your brain around?

I'd like this change as well. Then again, I don't subscribe to the "game balance über alles" school of thought...

I don't think the non-random table have anything to do with the game balance school of though. They have more to do with making summon monster an interesting choice for a spellcaster. In 1st and 2nd ed AD&D games that I played in I really don't remember summon monster being used at all. Even my own mage never used it (despite haveing most of them in his spellbook). It also lessens the utility of the spell so it is really only useful as a combat spell. Quite boring, imo.

 

[Melan]

Not that those creatures appear on any summon monster list I've ever seen. Is 'celestial badger' or 'dire rat' really that hard a concept to wrap your brain around?

Dire rats - no. Celestial badgers - absolutely. This goes waaay beyond the scope of this thread, but I just can't imagine a celestial badger. Okay, it is a badger. So far, so good. But what makes it celestial? Are there badgers in heaven? Or giant bombardier beetles, as per the 3.5 SRD? I understand them from a mechanical standpoint (even if I would prefer if the books provided the stats of these improved creatures), but I don't know what to do with them in a game world, even as a summoned critter.

I don't think the non-random table have anything to do with the game balance school of though. They have more to do with making summon monster an interesting choice for a spellcaster. In 1st and 2nd ed AD&D games that I played in I really don't remember summon monster being used at all. Even my own mage never used it (despite haveing most of them in his spellbook). It also lessens the utility of the spell so it is really only useful as a combat spell. Quite boring, imo.

Random results are less predictable than chosen one. This is both a boon and a curse, depending on your POV. There is a possiblity of gaining a very useful ally - but also summoning a creature which is unusable in a given situation. Choices are more balanced (the same goes for "point buy" chargen vs. random rolling, etc.).

Despite the risks involved, wizards in our 2e/1e games often used the Monster Summoning spells, and not only in combat. I distinctly remember the time when Ellinger the Sage used Monster Summoning IV to get help in opening an iron dungeon door. He got a gray ooze, to his delight. The unpredictability wasn't regarded as a bad thing - the players saw it as an entertaining game within a game.