Goblin NPCs: CR -2 ?! Why (or WTH)?

[Dark Dragon]

D&D 3.5 rules are alway good for a surprise, even after years of gaming... like the rule that a goblin NPC's CR is reduced by 2. Quote from the SRD 3.5:

"Challenge Rating

Goblins with levels in NPC classes have a CR equal to their character level -2."

Why wondering? Well, last session our DM has set up a trap for the party. The party consists of seven PCs (6 humans and a halfling), all of level 3, 32-point-buy-built, mostly with two classes. The group was moving a caravan (three carts drawn by horses) on a passage through a dense forest when they spotted a humanoid creature tied to a pole amidst on the way. Assuming a trap, one PC advanced for investigation and found that there was a camouflaged pit in front of the pole with the humanoid (which turns out to be a dryad in a very sorry shape). As soon as he found out that it was a trap, he signaled the party to come closer, but in the same time goblins burst out of the foliage and attacked the party.

The goblin team was made up of 6 "elite" warriors of about level 5, each with hp around 25 (very similar or more compared to the PCs), another 4 or 6 (?) warriors of level 1, and a goblin adept able to cast spells of level 2 (and leader of the goblin team). In addition, the adept was riding a large-sized spider that had two medium spiders as "guards".

Aside that we did not roll constantly high to hit AC 16 with ONE attack per round and PC, the party was split without much time to regroup properly, and was hindered by the foliage and the carts, the DM rolled much better (more rolls = more chances for GOOD rolls!), so that it was getting very close to a TPK.

Our only luck was when those few PCs closest to the adept decided to focus their attacks on him despite being hit by the warriors, and took him out finally (to make it more complicated, the adept had cast Mirror Image). Then the remaining goblin team broke and fled: the large spider and 3 elite and 2 (or 3) low-level warriors were still capable of fighting and in a better condition than the party (with 2 PCs already brought to negative hp, the casters out of spells, 2 PCs with hp <10, and the scouting PC still being too far away to help and at 50% of his hp as well).

So we discussed the encounter with the DM, and he said that goblin NPCs have a CR -2. Tierra's Encounter Calculator gave a "Pull out all the stops" aka "very difficult" according to the rule. However, if the DM would have pressed the encounter, the party would have been dead most likely, and it would be more fitting if you don't reduce the goblins' CR by 2, IMHO.

Now I wonder if there is a GOOD reason to reduce the goblin CR by 2? Goblins are faster than halflings (30 ft.), have darkvision, +4 to Move Silently & Ride, but have -2 to STR and CHA, and +2 to DEX. Halflings have a speed of 20 ft., normal sight, -2 to STR and +2 to DEX, +1 to saves, +2 to Climb, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, and +1 to attacks with slings & thrown weapons. Is this worth a difference of 2 in CR???

 

[the Jester]

The difference is only 1, not 2.

A halfling with an npc class has a CR equal to his class level -1.

The elite goblins in your example get +1 to CR for being elite IIRC. So let's examine the goblin group that attacked you:

6 "elite" warriors of about level 5: Assuming "elite" means "elite stat array", these guys should each be CR 4.
4 or 6 (?) warriors of level 1 are CR 1/3 each. We'll assume six of them for mathematical simplicity.
A goblin adept able to cast spells of level 2 (and leader of the goblin team) must be at least level 4 (to gain 0 level 2 spells). Let's assume he was, but needed the elite array; so let's call him CR 3.
A large-sized spider: CR 2.
Two medium spiders: CR 1 each.

To my count, that's a total of:

Six CR 1/3;
Two CR 1;
One CR 2;
One CR 3; and
Six CR 4 creatures.

Total EL: Approx. 9. No wonder you guys got your butts kicked.

Granted, the EL system tends to overestimate EL for a bunch of low level monsters, but those six CR 4 creatures alone push the EL up to 9. The rest is just butter on top.

Now, as to the abuseability of the CR system vis-a-vis the npc classes, I'll just point out that a fighter 4 and a fighter 4/warrior 1 have the same CR. Just a tip to all the rat bastard dms out there.

 

[D'karr]

D&D 3.5 rules are alway good for a surprise, even after years of gaming... like the rule that a goblin NPC's CR is reduced by 2... <snip>

CR Guidelines have mostly sucked for the entirety of that version of the game. I remember playing in a game where Fire Giants had cleric levels added to them to create a challenge. Because they were considered nonassociated class levels only counted for half level increases in CR. Yeah, CR as a whole is a very "broken" guideline.

 

[Dark Dragon]

The difference is only 1, not 2.

A halfling with an npc class has a CR equal to his class level -1.

Ah right, forgot that...

The difference is only 1, not 2.

The elite goblins in your example get +1 to CR for being elite IIRC.

Can you please give a link (SRD) or page in the books for that? I didn't find it but would like to tell it the DM

So let's examine the goblin group that attacked you:

6 "elite" warriors of about level 5: Assuming "elite" means "elite stat array", these guys should each be CR 4.
4 or 6 (?) warriors of level 1 are CR 1/3 each. We'll assume six of them for mathematical simplicity.
A goblin adept able to cast spells of level 2 (and leader of the goblin team) must be at least level 4 (to gain 0 level 2 spells). Let's assume he was, but needed the elite array; so let's call him CR 3.
A large-sized spider: CR 2.
Two medium spiders: CR 1 each.

To my count, that's a total of:

Six CR 1/3;
Two CR 1;
One CR 2;
One CR 3; and
Six CR 4 creatures.

Total EL: Approx. 9. No wonder you guys got your butts kicked.

Granted, the EL system tends to overestimate EL for a bunch of low level monsters, but those six CR 4 creatures alone push the EL up to 9. The rest is just butter on top.

The numbers are just off my mind, but they should fit regarding the encounter. So, the party has faced tougher foes than being adequate for the level, but gains less XPs compared to a fight with 6 goblin ftr 4 ?! That's why I'm wondering about any sense behind that NPC ruling of CRs.

Now, as to the abuseability of the CR system vis-a-vis the npc classes, I'll just point out that a fighter 4 and a fighter 4/warrior 1 have the same CR. Just a tip to all the rat bastard dms out there.

Yes, and the flaws of the CR system are more obvious at low levels. I've made two goblin melee guys. Both have the same stats for STR, DEX, and so on; hit points are not rolled (to keep statistics out), but average hp depending on the HD are used instead. And I strictly followed the NPC class CR rule from the SRD:

Challenge Rating

Goblins with levels in NPC classes have a CR equal to their character level -2.

As it does NOT say "goblins with exclusively levels in NPC classes", I assume that this rule applies even for goblins with levels in both PC AND NPC classes.

Goblin 1: warrior 2/fighter 2, HD 2d8+2d10, 2*4.5+2*5,5 = 20 hp, 4 feats, saves: F+6, R+0, W+0, BAB +4, CR 2 (see SRD)

Goblin 2: fighter 4, HD 4d10, 4*5,5 = 22 hp, 5 feats, saves: F+4, R+1, W+1, BAB +4, CR 4

The difference of 2 in CR gives:
+2 hp
+1 feat
+1 to Ref & Will
-2 to Fort.

Definitively worth it...

The example shows that the NPC ruling of CRs is just ... er ... whatever... not good. So far, when I was DM, I was not really aware of that rule, and simply increased the CR by the amount of added class levels (being PC or NPC classes). But I'm dm'ing mostly moderate to high-level campaigns so it seems that it does not have that much of an impact anymore.

CR Guidelines have mostly sucked for the entirety of that version of the game. I remember playing in a game where Fire Giants had cleric levels added to them to create a challenge. Because they were considered nonassociated class levels only counted for half level increases in CR. Yeah, CR as a whole is a very "broken" guideline.

Maybe not completely broken ALL the time, but yes, a DM needs to be careful about those CR numbers. This reminds of an encounter involving a balor:
A balor's CR is 20. Now he faces a classical group of 4 adventurers, each at level 20. Should be a classical challenge, a TPK unlikely (unless the players are stupid or have really bad luck).
Now in round one the balor uses "Blasphemy". The party is dazed for one round, no save. Next round, the balor summons another balor... Now one balor uses blasphemy every round, while the other hack'n slashes the party. So much for the CR system...

 

[the Jester]

Can you please give a link (SRD) or page in the books for that? I didn't find it but would like to tell it the DM

Sorry, I haven't play 3e in years and am not sure where the reference is off hand. It also occurs to me that that might be a 3.0 rule, not 3.5, since 3.0 didn't have associated/nonassociated classes. Still, I am pretty sure that I was using the "knock off a level from npc classes" approach through the end of 3.5.

I'd look in the Monster Manual in the section about adding class levels, or maybe the DMG or Savage Species.

One thing my quick once-over did remind me of: npcs with pc class levels get the elite ability score array for free (3.5 MM 294, paragraph 1).

The numbers are just off my mind, but they should fit regarding the encounter. So, the party has faced tougher foes than being adequate for the level, but gains less XPs compared to a fight with 6 goblin ftr 4 ?!

I've always ruled that a goblin with one level in a pc class is CR 1/2, and this seems to jive (IIRC) with published adventures. Again, it has been a while, so I could be wrong here. Assuming I'm not, though, if you guys were all 3rd level, 6 goblin ftr 4s (CR 3) should have earned you 5400 xp, whereas the fight you actually had should have earned you 8100 xp (again, assuming that I got all the calculations right above).

As it does NOT say "goblins with exclusively levels in NPC classes", I assume that this rule applies even for goblins with levels in both PC AND NPC classes.

Goblin 1: warrior 2/fighter 2, HD 2d8+2d10, 2*4.5+2*5,5 = 20 hp, 4 feats, saves: F+6, R+0, W+0, BAB +4, CR 2 (see SRD)

Goblin 2: fighter 4, HD 4d10, 4*5,5 = 22 hp, 5 feats, saves: F+4, R+1, W+1, BAB +4, CR 4

The difference of 2 in CR gives:
+2 hp
+1 feat
+1 to Ref & Will
-2 to Fort.

Definitively worth it...

I think it's a difference of 1, as I said.

A more apt comparison might be to compare a Fighter 4 vs. a Fighter 2/Warrior 3. You then have equal CRs (according to my system). The warrior has an extra +1 BAB and +1 Will; he gains another 4 + Con bonus hp (on average). The fighter trades that for an extra feat- probably weapon specialization. IMHO it's about right.

The influence of class levels on CR really gets wonky at higher levels, though.

 

[delericho]

Can you please give a link (SRD) or page in the books for that? I didn't find it but would like to tell it the DM

Here you are: link. See the table right at the bottom of the page.

 

[Dark Dragon]

I think it's a difference of 1, as I said.

A more apt comparison might be to compare a Fighter 4 vs. a Fighter 2/Warrior 3. You then have equal CRs (according to my system). The warrior has an extra +1 BAB and +1 Will; he gains another 4 + Con bonus hp (on average). The fighter trades that for an extra feat- probably weapon specialization. IMHO it's about right.

Ok, from that point of view I could agree. But the rules are not fully clear, because the SRD just says that goblins with NPC classes have a CR -2, thereby not excluding PC classes. Or did you include the elite array already?

But then it leaves still some room for the DM to adjust the encounter level of the full encounter...

Here you are: link. See the table right at the bottom of the page.

Many thanks, I simply overlooked the table

 

[Jacob]

Too true that the CR numbers should always be guidelines rather than a measured equation, especially with the supplement books in mind. But given this was a SRD stated encounter...hmmm.

7 * PCs of Lvl 3
vs.
6 * Elite Lvl 5 Warriors
4-6 * Lvl 1 Warriors
1 * Adept at least Lvl 4 (with 3 spiders)

...Your DM was intent on killing you. Maybe unintentionally, but the numbers are there. Even if the PCs had a well balanced party (they usually never do), The Elite Warriors alone would have been a coin toss depending on who the dice favored, but the rest was the icing on the cake. Lesson learned, and I'm certain it makes for a fascinating story. Hopefully?

Maybe not completely broken ALL the time, but yes, a DM needs to be careful about those CR numbers. This reminds of an encounter involving a balor:
A balor's CR is 20. Now he faces a classical group of 4 adventurers, each at level 20. Should be a classical challenge, a TPK unlikely (unless the players are stupid or have really bad luck).
Now in round one the balor uses "Blasphemy". The party is dazed for one round, no save. Next round, the balor summons another balor... Now one balor uses blasphemy every round, while the other hack'n slashes the party. So much for the CR system...

I love this, it's a little cruel, but I want to use it. As noted, it's a party of Lvl 20 PCs, who should be prepared for such a bout. The first defense would be the fact most Demons would use the summon as a last resort, because it would put the summoner in a position to repay the summoned. Then there's the hope the party breaks the Balor's Concentration as it proceeds to summon for a full round. If they should fail, well...PCs better hope one of them has high Spell Resistance.

 

[Dark Dragon]

Too true that the CR numbers should always be guidelines rather than a measured equation, especially with the supplement books in mind. But given this was a SRD stated encounter...hmmm.

7 * PCs of Lvl 3
vs.
6 * Elite Lvl 5 Warriors
4-6 * Lvl 1 Warriors
1 * Adept at least Lvl 4 (with 3 spiders)

...Your DM was intent on killing you. Maybe unintentionally, but the numbers are there. Even if the PCs had a well balanced party (they usually never do), The Elite Warriors alone would have been a coin toss depending on who the dice favored, but the rest was the icing on the cake. Lesson learned, and I'm certain it makes for a fascinating story. Hopefully?

Hmm, I doubt that the DM had the intention of killing some (or all) PCs at that low level. I got more the impression that he relied too much on a) the calculated CR and b) hoped that we as players act in a better tactical way.

For a), I made the experience that at low party levels, you have to be even more cautious about the CR, because a lot depends on the dice rolls. This makes it much less "controllable". Generally, at low levels the PCs actions, especially the melee options, are reduced to one attack roll per round. If the the DM places a group with double the amount of members against the PCs, the DM has a double chance to hit. At low levels this means that hp go down faster, forcing the PC cleric to heal and not doing damage => the foes may deal damage more often as well. The same holds if the foes have similar amounts of hps, then everything depends on dice rolls. If the players have bad luck with their rolls, PC will die most likely.

For b), our tactical options were a faster regrouping followed by flanking attacks that allow some sneak attacks. However, in round 1, our main cleric was brought from 24 to 2 hp by a Scorching Ray of the goblin adept (the DM really rolled 22 damage with 4d6!), the scouting PC was alone and faced several goblins with javelins (and decided to cast an Entropic Shield, which absolutely did NOT work during the whole encounter, so much about luck!), the second cleric/ninja decided to heal the first cleric, and the rest of the party decided to stand and fight. And we constantly rolled poorly, but hitting AC 16 is still not so easy with attacks ranging from +2 to +4.

Altogether, it was a combination of bad luck, sub-optimal tactical choices, and a CR issue...

I love this, it's a little cruel, but I want to use it. As noted, it's a party of Lvl 20 PCs, who should be prepared for such a bout. The first defense would be the fact most Demons would use the summon as a last resort, because it would put the summoner in a position to repay the summoned. Then there's the hope the party breaks the Balor's Concentration as it proceeds to summon for a full round. If they should fail, well...PCs better hope one of them has high Spell Resistance.

Be careful: the daze effect of Blasphemy lasts one round, giving the balor enough time to summon up a colleague without being disturbed by the PCs! Payment of this colleague would be a share of the PCs stuff