Giant or Skeleton? Or both?

[RigaMortus]

We had to fight a skeleton of a Fire Giant in the last session. Dwarves get a +4 dodge bonus vs. giants. The DM did not allow him to apply this because he said the skeleton fire giant lost the "giant" type and gained the "undead" type. He also stated that not every large creature is considered a giant (look at large and huge dragons for example).

I agree with this, but I can also see it the other way. So I'm looking for some feedback. In this instance, should the skeleton fire giant be considered a "giant" (as well as undead) for purposes of the Dwarf's +4 to dodge giants?

 

[The Souljourner]

Nope. Its type is undead, not giant. Sorry.

Of course, (venturing deep into house rule territory here) I think it would be cool to make undead a subtype. So you could have undead Giants, undead humanoids, etc. Kinda makes sense, right?

But I guess the rationale is, once you're undead, you're so different from your non-dead self, that all bets are off.

-The Souljourner

 

[Ferret]

I think it relies on the back that giants like to smash things. One big powerful blow (or what ever tactics they use.) As undeads they don't act the same.

 

[mikebr99]

I think it relies on the back that giants like to smash things. One big powerful blow (or what ever tactics they use.) As undeads they don't act the same.

I would agree... WRT the non-intelligent undead. But the vampires, etc., who have their memories and abilities from their former life, and use those abilities in combat, should still fight like their former Giant self. Of course this would be a house rule...

YMMV


Mike

 

[RigaMortus]

But not all giants fight the same way. An Ogre (a giant) and a Fire Giant (also a gaint) have different tactics. I would surmise that the dwarf isn't so keen on how giants fight, but rather they get the dodge bonus because of their size.

Are you suggesting that a medium skeleton and a large skeleton use the same fighting tactics? I don't think they do. The main difference of course is their size.

 

[Voadam]

I would agree... WRT the non-intelligent undead. But the vampires, etc., who have their memories and abilities from their former life, and use those abilities in combat, should still fight like their former Giant self. Of course this would be a house rule...

YMMV


Mike

Intelligent undead templates generally give the subtype augmented (base type) so a human vampire still is subject to human or humanoid targeting stuff such as an enlarge spell.

 

[Scion]

Even if a giant would use an augmented version of reduce (reducing oneself by 2 size categories) and was then smaller than the dwarf, the dwarf would still get his bonus

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Are you suggesting that a medium skeleton and a large skeleton use the same fighting tactics? I don't think they do. The main difference of course is their size.

Yes, I think they do. skeletons have no fighting tactics. Thus, their tactics, or complete lack thereof, are the same.

Note that a dwarf wouldn't get the bonus versus an enlarged human, either. It's not just size, it's how giants behave.

 

[noeuphoria]

I would also make the arguement it has to do with the giants body type, though. I.E. dwarfs know how to get in blind spots, duck underneath legs, get places where it's harder to get a good swing. But ultimately, seems like a house-rule type situation.

 

[dcollins]

From the SRD:

CREATING A SKELETON... Size and Type: The creature’s type changes to undead.

A large skeleton has the type of "undead", not "giant". Dwarf bonuses against giants do not apply.