Fun with the Symbol spells

Shadeus

First Post
I have a cleric about to turn 9th-level, which means 5th-level spells. I was reading over the symbol spells and they sparked a few questions:

- Can you scribe a symbol on a shield?
- Does Symbol of Pain have no save or does it not list the save because its a Fort save like Symbol of Death?
- Is the Symbol magic intact until triggered, dispelled, or disarmed?
- If the cleric makes a command word for the symbol on his shield (assuming that's possible), what kind of action is it to trigger the symbol?

For the latter question, say he scribes a symbol of sleep on his shield and attunes it to the party so they are uneffected. Is there any reason he couldn't have the symbol trigger when he says the phrase, "My god is better than your god?" At that point, he could start counting down the 10 min/level (90 min) duration of the spell, right?

For convenience, I copied the Symbol of Death text below for reference:

SRD said:
Symbol of Death
Necromancy [Death]
Level: Clr 8, Sor/Wiz 8
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: 0 ft.; see text
Effect: One symbol
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
This spell allows you to scribe a potent rune of power upon a surface. When triggered, a symbol of death slays one or more creatures within 60 feet of the symbol (treat as a burst) whose combined total current hit points do not exceed 150. The symbol of death affects the closest creatures first, skipping creatures with too many hit points to affect. Once triggered, the symbol becomes active and glows, lasting for 10 minutes per caster level or until it has affected 150 hit points’ worth of creatures, whichever comes first. Any creature that enters the area while the symbol of death is active is subject to its effect, whether or not that creature was in the area when it was triggered. A creature need save against the symbol only once as long as it remains within the area, though if it leaves the area and returns while the symbol is still active, it must save again.
Until it is triggered, the symbol of death is inactive (though visible and legible at a distance of 60 feet). To be effective, a symbol of death must always be placed in plain sight and in a prominent location. Covering or hiding the rune renders the symbol of death ineffective, unless a creature removes the covering, in which case the symbol of death works normally.
As a default, a symbol of death is triggered whenever a creature does one or more of the following, as you select: looks at the rune; reads the rune; touches the rune; passes over the rune; or passes through a portal bearing the rune. Regardless of the trigger method or methods chosen, a creature more than 60 feet from a symbol of death can’t trigger it (even if it meets one or more of the triggering conditions, such as reading the rune). Once the spell is cast, a symbol of death’s triggering conditions cannot be changed.
In this case, “reading” the rune means any attempt to study it, identify it, or fathom its meaning. Throwing a cover over a symbol of death to render it inoperative triggers it if the symbol reacts to touch. You can’t use a symbol of death offensively; for instance, a touch-triggered symbol of death remains untriggered if an item bearing the symbol of death is used to touch a creature. Likewise, a symbol of death cannot be placed on a weapon and set to activate when the weapon strikes a foe.
You can also set special triggering limitations of your own. These can be as simple or elaborate as you desire. Special conditions for triggering a symbol of death can be based on a creature’s name, identity, or alignment, but otherwise must be based on observable actions or qualities. Intangibles such as level, class, Hit Dice, and hit points don’t qualify.
When scribing a symbol of death, you can specify a password or phrase that prevents a creature using it from triggering the effect. Anyone using the password remains immune to that particular rune’s effects so long as the creature remains within 60 feet of the rune. If the creature leaves the radius and returns later, it must use the password again.
You also can attune any number of creatures to the symbol of death, but doing this can extend the casting time. Attuning one or two creatures takes negligible time, and attuning a small group (as many as ten creatures) extends the casting time to 1 hour. Attuning a large group (as many as twenty-five creatures) takes 24 hours. Attuning larger groups takes proportionately longer. Any creature attuned to a symbol of death cannot trigger it and is immune to its effects, even if within its radius when triggered. You are automatically considered attuned to your own symbols of death, and thus always ignore the effects and cannot inadvertently trigger them.
Read magic allows you to identify a symbol of death with a DC 19 Spellcraft check. Of course, if the symbol of death is set to be triggered by reading it, this will trigger the symbol.
A symbol of death can be removed by a successful dispel magic targeted solely on the rune. An erase spell has no effect on a symbol of death. Destruction of the surface where a symbol of death is inscribed destroys the symbol but also triggers it.
Symbol of death can be made permanent with a permanency spell. A permanent symbol of death that is disabled or that has affected its maximum number of hit points becomes inactive for 10 minutes, then can be triggered again as normal.
Note: Magic traps such as symbol of death are hard to detect and disable. A rogue (only) can use the Search skill to find a symbol of death and Disable Device to thwart it. The DC in each case is 25 + spell level, or 33 for symbol of death.
Material Component: Mercury and phosphorus, plus powdered diamond and opal with a total value of at least 5,000 gp each.
 

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I would say yes, though higher level symbols may require more space (GM call).

I would state that it is Fort Save.

I don't know if you can make a command word to activate the spell. The command word is to avoid activating the spell.

The problems you run into are that it will effect everyone within 60' even if they are behind you unless they are "attuned" to it which takes a longer casting time. Though you could also setup a password for them, but they could not be more than 60' from you otherwise they would lose that effect. GM may be tricky with this and roll a random luck rolls to determine if a party member walked outside of the 60' since they last used the password. Also what happens when you walk into town and a local reads it? Oops! So only would be good on dungeon crawls, but then the long casting time would be a problem.

So, yes you could but it would be very dangerous and probably not recommended.
 

I'd attune the symbol and put it on a shield well in advance of the dungeon/adventure (so as not to take up the spell slot). Then he'd have to keep it covered up until it was to be used. If the enemies are taking time to read your shield in battle, you aren't doing it right. :)

I took the "specialized conditions" as that I could set it to be triggered however I wanted (like a spoken word). But maybe the only way to trigger it is the way described as above:
As a default, a symbol of death is triggered whenever a creature does one or more of the following, as you select: looks at the rune; reads the rune; touches the rune; passes over the rune; or passes through a portal bearing the rune.
 

Shadeus said:
- Can you scribe a symbol on a shield?
Yes. The SRD description only disallows using "touch activation" symbols on weapons...and then, the only restriction is that striking a creature doesn't set off the Symbol.

Shadeus said:
- Does Symbol of Pain have no save or does it not list the save because its a Fort save like Symbol of Death?
The second option. The symbol of pain allows a Fort. Negates save.

Shadeus said:
- Is the Symbol magic intact until triggered, dispelled, or disarmed?
Yes. That's easy!

Shadeus said:
- If the cleric makes a command word for the symbol on his shield (assuming that's possible), what kind of action is it to trigger the symbol?
It is NOT possible to use a command word to activate the Symbol. To be honest, that took a few readings frrom me to get right.


Shadeus said:
Is there any reason he couldn't have the symbol trigger when he says the phrase, "My god is better than your god?" At that point, he could start counting down the 10 min/level (90 min) duration of the spell, right?
Not possible. You are limited to the list given in the spell description..although you can add "additional limitations".
 
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....ooohhhh: I just had a "wicked-cool" idea. As my players read this stuff, ain't no way I'm gonna post it though. Sorry.
:(
 
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Nail said:
Not possible. You are limited to the list given in the spell description..although you can add "additional limitations".

Ack, I'm beginning to think that's right. So...how do you know if someone looked at it? Is it like a gaze attack? They have to be within 60', right, but what else? If you are within 60' is there a Spot check or do you just automatically read it and trigger it?
 

Blatent bump.

How will I ever learn to be a power gamer without your help? Please...help the starving children...err...you know what I mean.
 

Err.....I *think* anyone who is in combat with you and within 60 feet would be counted as "looking at the rune". My arguement would be that in order to know where they are, you must have looked at them. Moreover, 3.5e doesn't have front and back because it assumes everyone is looking and shifting in all directions.

Hmmm. I'm really not sure 'bout how well that argues the point though........

Re: interesting idea -- email me at fredochs (you know what keyboard symbol must go here) yahoo (then another small, tiny, sentence-ending symbol goes here) com
:)
 
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I was thinking maybe it would follow the gaze attack rules. So a combatant that was aware of the symbol could close their eyes, but would essentially be blind. I just have to convince my DM that it's like a gaze attack...

I don't know why they didn't specify it in the spell description; they have these great rules for gaze attacks too.
 

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