D&D 5E From Prestige Classes and Paragon Paths to Subclasses and Feats

[Li Shenron]

Yesterday evening I just took out my early 3.0 splatbooks and browsed through prestige classes, thinking how we might see those character concepts and their specific features/ability again in 5e...

3e prestige classes were a great idea conceptually, giving the opportunity to represent specializations, memberships in closed groups, and more. Unfortunately many of them were poorly designed for various reasons, and IMO it was also boring to see them used as "tricks" to attempt at fixing some shortcomings of the core rules (e.g. PrCls used just to make some multiclass combo more feasible). IMHO the biggest issue with PrCls was actually players' fault to see them as pure exploitation territory since it was freely allowed to multiclass into as many as you wanted.

Nevertheless, the concepts of prestige class and paragon path are sound, the problems were in their design (as a whole, and individually) and exploitation. If you detest the concept itself, please avoid this thread, thank you

Please note that I don't play 4e, therefore I am not familiar with how paragon paths work, and what paragon paths exist, but since I guess they are a related concept, feel free to add your opinions on them to this discussion!

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The current situation: we have at least 2 different mechanics in 5e to represent character concepts previously implemented as prestige classes, subclasses and feats. Let's take a look at the implications of using either...

Subclasses:

1) each subclass belong to one and only class (so far)
2) you choose yours at 3rd level or similar, in any case it is an early choice, and you must choose it at that point
3) the benefits are granted gradually over the course of your 20 levels, split into 4-6 steps, benefits can either represent a progression or be separate
4) in the standard game a subclass has a fixed progression (once chosen, you take the whole path)*
5) subclasses are exclusives, you can only have one*
6) some classes currently follow a pattern in their subclasses (e.g. domain spells) but in general it should be possible to design a subclass features quite freely, as long as it can be "plugged in" at those levels

[*but in the advanced game it's possible for the DM to allow mixing subclasses benefits]

Feats:

1) feats are generally available to all classes, but sometimes have prerequisites that might restrict some class
2) you choose feats at different levels, first one at 4th the others later, 4-7 per class
3) each feat is a self-contained, all-or-nothing bunch of 1-3 benefits, however there are also feat chains to represent progressions
4) a feat chain doesn't have to be taken all, you can stop at any point
5) feat chains are not exclusives, you can freely mix them
6) feat design is bound only to the magnitude of each, if a wanted feature exceed the magnitude then a feat chain is required

And let's check what were the characteristics of prestige classes in 3e...

Prestige Classes:

1) prestige classes are generally to all classes, but sometimes have prerequisites that might restrict some class (and this was actually very common)
2) you can enter a prestige class at any level, usually 6th is the minimum
3) each prestige class necessarily offers a progression (usually up to 10 levels max) because it actually replaces your advancement in the base class; the prestige class own features can be either progressive or separate
4) a prestige class doesn't have to be taken all, you can stop at any point
5) prestige classes are not exclusives, you can take multiple ones
6) prestige classes design is bound by the fact that they replace levels advancement in your base class, i.e. they have to let you increase basic stats and possibly spellcasting

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Some observations...

Subclasses directly modify a class, so they can be great for representing prestige classes that are stylistic variations of a specific class or may imply heavy alterations/improvements to how that class feature works, and may not be applicable to other classes anyway. The main limitations IMO are (1) they are not good to represent concepts that should instead be applicable across classes, (2) they start so early that they don't represent well membership in "elite groups", (3) you can't have more than one unless you're willing to do some adaptation work with the DM.

Feats are great for stuff that you want applicable to different classes, e.g. to represent membership in a group that includes a variety of characters united by something else than skills. Also, they could easily have a level requirement (explicit or implicit) to represent truly a "prestige" group. If you want to allow more than one membership in your high-level games, feats already do that. I don't see any significant downside in using feats to represent prestige classes, except maybe that some class gets almost twice as many compared to others.

Overall feats look more suitable than subclasses, however there are some old prestige classes that aren't really needed by anyone else than a single class, and still look like they would be easier to design as a subclass.

Now one of the questions is: with subclasses and feats, do we have enough mechanics to represent well the concepts covered by 3e prestige classes and 4e paragon paths, or do we need yet another set of rules?

In my next posts, I'll present some thoughts of mine on a few specific prestige classes from early 3e splatbooks.

 

[Li Shenron]

Dungeon Master's Guide (3.0)

Arcane Archer

Originally had a bunch of small, specific features (enchant arrow, imbue arrow, seeker arrow, phase arrow, hail of arrows, arrow of death) and required spellcasting but didn't grant further spellcasting levels, which mostly resulted in being a class for fighter-types with few levels of wizard.

The only actual progression is in enchant arrow which isn't appropriate anymore due to bounded accuracy, but can anyway exist if more limited.

Thus IMO this is a good candidate to be turned into feats, and in fact we already have the first feat (imbue arrow).

We can easily have a feat chain here, or maybe the whole set of features can fit in just 2 feats. I would probably just remove the bonus from enchant arrow and simply keep the benefit that the arrows become magic, and add this property to the current feat, then there could be a 2nd-tier feat to include seeker arrow, phase arrow and arrow of death. IMHO hail of arrows can just be ignored (it's not that magical, and we have other feats to shoot lots of arrows).

As a 2-feat chain, this could be a nice addition to anybody with at least one spellcasting level, but also to a full caster, since it won't anymore delay spellcasting advancement.


Assassin

This is currently a Rogue subclass and I think this is very appropriate.

The only missing thing is assassin spells, but the concept of a spellcasting assassin is debatable... some people like it, others totally hate it. Currently, if you want a spellcasting assassin you already have multiple options: you can take spellcasting feats and pick appropriately themed spells (the downside is your number of known spells will be very low), or you can multiclass into a caster class (the downside is giving up levels of sneak attack). Overall I am satisfied with the current options.


Blackguard

Was always meant to be the evil counterpart of a paladin, so it will probably end up as a paladin subclass. Note that most paladin spells (except those from the oath) currently aren't strictly "good" so this may be done without any further change to the class.

Traditionally, there is some need to specifically represent a "fallen paladin", which might require some simple ad-hoc rules, because it shouldn't require to choose this oath at 3rd level. That's one possibility (e.g. someone who was effectively an evil anti-paladin since day 1) but the second possibility of "falling" must be there. I don't think this will be hard at all... it could be just a later swap of oaths.


Dwarven Defender

IMO the only real defining feature here was the defensive stance. Uncanny dodge and DR aren't unique to this PrCl. So a single feat might be well enough for this.


Loremaster

This one also didn't have much in terms of unique features, just a bunch of extra small boosts, languages, bonus feats and spells. Lore basically replicated the bardic lore.

We have a feat for additional lores and languages, I don't see need for more.


Shadowdancer

This one is the hardest of all... IMO it was one of the best prestige classes ever, because it had a lot of features sharing the same theme.

The most important features IMO are hide in plain sight, darkvision, shadow illusion, summon shadow and shadow jump. All of them might not fit in a single feat, but it's also hard to pick which ones should be in the first feat and which later...

The rest of the features are not unique to the prcl, so they can be ignored (they are probably available to the rogue class and also maybe available from more generic feats). I am undecided however, because if we think a shadowdancer needs all of those, then it would be better as a rogue subclass. I am also uncertain as whether the concept itself should be open to other classes.

 

[Li Shenron]

Defenders of the Faith

Church Inquisitor

A good one to analyze... first of all, the concept could fit a domain: inquisition, if we want this available to only clerics of certain faiths. But it could also fit all clerics indipendently of their deity, in which case a subclass could be designed that actually would be taken instead of taking a domain. It also depends on how many of the prestige class features we want to keep, if we want all of them, then we need to take something away from the subclass features e.g. domain spells, but at the same time several of these features can just be replaced by appropriate domain spells... so it leads back to whether we want this available to all churches or just some.

Eventually it's also possible to consider this be available to non-clerics i.e. feats, but then those spell-like abilities and immunities will be too much for just one.


Divine Oracle

Basically this grants only bonuses to divination spells + defensive abilities. The latter will be available anyway (even tho not necessarily in this exact form, but the concept is already covered by other feats). Thus I think the whole prcl can be covered by one feat requiring to know at least some divinations.


Holy Liberator

It's basically a paladin variant, hence can easily become an oath (subclass).


Hospitaler

There isn't much at all here, just lay on hands and turn undead. Unless this concept is largely expanded, we can just forget about it, it's not nearly enough for a subclass.

However this got me thinking: would it be good to have a feat which grants turn undead and/or lay on hands to anyone?


Hunter of the Dead

This is IMO a very good candidate as a feat, since it's a broad concept that can apply to all classes, and the features are just a bunch without progression.

If they are too many, we can group them in two feats: (1) detect undead, smite undead and true death into a more offensive feat, and (2) various protection vs undead spells and energy draining into a more defensive feat.


Master of Shrouds

Basically this one is just extra turn undead plus a summon undead feature, which IMO can naturally become a feat.

 

[Li Shenron]

Sword and Fist

Cavalier

This concept is already covered by the fighter subclass known as Knight, even tho the mechanics are different, but IMO it's not so important. I don't think we need another.


Devoted Defender

Basically the unique features here are harm's way, defensive strike, deflect attack, so these could better be a single feat.


Drunken Master

There's several benefits some of which are progressive, and the concept is strongly associated to unarmed martial arts. I think this is a good candidate for Monk's subclass.


Duelist

Tricky one... it has plenty of features, although several of the flat bonuses probably would not work with bounded accuracy. It looks like a perfect subclass of the Fighter... but should it be instead available to other classes as well?


Fist of Hextor

This is an example of a character concept associated to membership of a tight-knit group. This suggests against it being a subclass, since it should be possible to become a member at any time, especially at higher levels.

It doesn't actually have many unique features. Brutal strike may need to stop earlier than +4 because of bounded accuracy, and if we also limit how many times per day frightful presence and the strength boost work, it could all be turned into a single feat.


(Master) Samurai

This one is too much of a wide concept, it just has to be a subclass or maybe even an alternate class.

I suppose the generic D&D will have it as a subclass, or not have it at all. An Oriental Adventure rulebooks/setting might turn is into a full class with own subclasses (e.g. in Rokugan the Samurai would probably be different depending on the clan).

 

[Li Shenron]

Song and Silence

Dread Pirate
Outlaw (of the Crimson Road)
Spymaster
Thief-acrobat

These are all pretty wide concepts, I don't think they can be anything better than Rogue subclasses.

(Actually, all other prestige classes in this books seemed to me unneeded since they have very few interesting unique features, except maybe the Fang of Lolth but that's more like a curse, not something that I think we need to handle with regular PC options)

 

[Li Shenron]

Masters of the Wild

Animal Lord

I think this concept was not explored enough, I would like to see it expanded and more features created.

Overall, it's probably safer to design this as a Druid subclass with multiple choices, i.e. with options to choose a specific animal and get all its benefits (as in the original prestige class), or mix them up (like the Totem Barbarian).


Blighter

This is a good concept for NPC or evil PC, but IMO it requires special rules, similar to those of a "fallen paladin".

Then it's a bit hard because it does feel like it should be a subclass but then I'm not sure how it would interact with whatever subclass you already had... should you really lose your abilities from your previous subclass? This is not the same as a fallen paladin which clearly loses benefits of the previous ("good") oath.


Foe Hunter

A multi-choice prestige class, since you have to pick your foe, then you become a Goblin Hunter, Dragon Hunter, etc.

There is actually very little uniqueness here: rancor and death attack. This can be a feat, and toss in some extra if it's too small as is.

It also makes a lot of sense that this feat could be taken multiple times, each time selecting a different foe.


Frenzied Berserker

Already a Barbarian subclass, not exactly the same, but I think it's enough.

However it raises the question on whether rage could be allowed as a feat available to everyone, if limited compared to that of the Barbarian.


Oozemaster

I always liked this kind of weird concepts... but this prestige class featured a gradual transformation that is not so easy to implement.

It's inappropriate IMO as a subclass because it doesn't work well if forced to start at low level, and because it doesn't really fit one caster class only.

OTOH, as a feat it can't represent the progressive transformation... and a feat chain might be too expensive, unless there are other features added. So I really don't know what would work better here...


Tempest

Basically this is entirely built on 2WF advanced features so it should very much be a feat or feat chain.

This case made me think that, when there are some "advanced" features of a certain fighting style that is open to everyone, we have to keep in mind that each gaming group still has the option to label that feat (or whatever) as "unavailable" unless you belong to a specific group, i.e. to introduce some RP requirements, if the group is not ok with that being universally available.

But it's important that the game mechanics don't make it strictly unavailable by default, which is what would happen if this becomes a subclass.


Verdant Lord

Looks a lot to me like a Druid subclass. In this case, the progressive transformation is easy to implement.


Watch Detective

There are both magical and non-magical features here. As a prestige class, they made sense together, but... I totally see how this could be turned into a feat that contains only non-magical features, so that then anyone can take a detective role. Then it will be up to the class to add magical (or whatever) additional abilities that can be used as a detective.


Windrider

Again, this is a narrow concept for allowing a PC to ride aerial creatures. It can definitely be a feat.

 

[Li Shenron]

Tome and Blood

Arcane Trickster

This was meant as a multiclass prestige class, but unlike Mystic Theurge and others who seemed to just wanting to "fix" a structural problem of multiclassing rules, this one has IMO a good concept of its own.

Still, the only unique features here are ranged legerdemain and impromptu sneak attack, so why not having a single feat for this?


Blood Magus

Plenty of specific features... in some way, this concept alters how the caster accesses magic. For instance, scarification, blood draught are alternatives to Scribe Scroll and Brew Potion.

Overall, this concept sounds to me like it's not necessarily "prestigious" i.e. something you unlock/discover at higher level, but could be just the representation of a different tradition of magic, and thus become a Mage subclass.


Candle Caster

This was one of my favourites but got so little love that it was never even updated to 3.5 IIRC...

The features are interesting but not progressive, so it could be turned into a feat or feat chain, with the added benefit that it might be allowed for clerics and druids too.


Dragon Disciple

Another case of gradual transformation, but maybe the trickiest of all.

Should this be allowed to arcane casters only or to anyone?
Should it be possible to advance only partially or should it be mandatory to reach the end?
Should it be allowed to start at low level or only high?


Elemental Savant

Despite the immense potential of the elemental concept, I don't think this specific implementation had much unique benefit. IMO they can be just lumped into a feat, allowing to take it multiple times for different elements.


Spellsword

There is pretty much only channel spell here, which can easily be a feat.

The other main feature was ignore spell failure but that's now part of the core rules anyway.


Wayfarer Guide

This was the narrowest prestige class I've ever seen, only 3 levels to slightly boost teleportation spell.

Hence, another perfect feat.

 

[Pickles JG]

How many of these prestige classes are actually worth salvaging? Most of them got very little traction as they are not core concepts or archetypes. I think your analyses are correct though - most of the flavour of these can be re captured with a bit of background roleplaying & maybe a feat.

The caster assassin & shadow dancer could both be a thief supernatural subclass, sub sub classes thereof ( & these are both classic & cool)

In fact I believe there may already be tiers of subclass based on the mage/wizard. You can be a mage / wizard / invoker. You may in future be able to be a mage / warlock / fey pact (say).

Not sure how well this works for the other classes though.

 

[Blackbrrd]

Tome and Blood

Arcane Trickster

This was meant as a multiclass prestige class, but unlike Mystic Theurge and others who seemed to just wanting to "fix" a structural problem of multiclassing rules, this one has IMO a good concept of its own.

Still, the only unique features here are ranged legerdemain and impromptu sneak attack, so why not having a single feat for this?

Had a PC with this PrC and it's a pretty neat concept. Full spellcasting and nearly full sneak attack progression. It is one of those bridge-PrC's that are pretty fun to play. You sacrifice some power to get diversity.

 

[I'm A Banana]

A) I love this thread.

B) Shadowdancer: you note that it's not great for a series of feats, but what's wrong with making it a subclass? All those things sound like fits for Rogue abilities, and also overlap with some of the shadow-based abilties that a 4e Assassin may take. It breaks the mold of a purely "non-magical" rogue, but I think that's kind of a good thing.