D&D 5E Friends cantrip revisited

[Sword of Spirit]

I'm working on my house rules, and I was planning to change friends like this:

"A creature influenced by this spell does not necessarily become hostile or know that they were manipulated by magic. After the spell duration ends, the creature is immune to being influenced by you with this spell for the next 24 hours."

However, the more I think about it, I'm not even sure that second sentence is necessary.

I'm comparing it with the other two spells that it should be compared with: guidance (cantrip) and charm person (1st-level). The more I look at it, the less I feel that it would be unbalanced to simply remove the negative consequences and not add in any other restrictions (Ie, use the first sentence of my house rule and eliminate the second sentence).

Let's compare it to guidance. My proposed friends gets advantage, which is usually better than +1d4. But guidance works on any check, will still work on a hostile opponent, and can be cast on someone else instead of just yourself. It doesn't seem to me that friends is noticeably better than guidance. Would anyone like to share their opinions on the balance between these two spells (applying the first sentence from my house rule to friends)?

Let's compare it to charm person, realizing that it needs to be weaker than a 1st-level spell. My proposed friends has the benefits of not requiring a saving throw, not necessarily* tipping off the target after it expires, and having unlimited castings. Charm person has the benefits of a 30' range, lasts an hour with no concentration, can be cast on a hostile creature, and the charmed creature regard you as a friendly acquaintance. Now, if you take that last feature as merely fluff, it seems like charm person is still a useful spell, but perhaps not as much better than friends as one might like. But if you actually take into account the ramifications of the target becoming a friendly acquaintance for an hour vs. having fuzzy judgement for a minute it seems like charm person really does have a lot going for it. But is it enough? How about opinions on the superiority (or lack thereof) of charm person over my proposed house rule (first sentence only) to friends?

I'd also appreciate any other feedback that might help me sort out any balance issues I'm not seeing.

Thanks!


* By this I mean that they might guess something was up if you convinced them to do something totally out of character, but they might just think they were using bad judgment, and if you only use it for subtle things the chance of being noticed is pretty slim.

 

[iserith]

Let's look at the Social Interaction guidelines in the DMG (pages 244-245).

An Indifferent creature will offer no help but does no harm. After some roleplaying and a DC 10 check (presuming the DM thinks there is uncertainty as to the outcome), the creature does as asked as long as no risks or sacrifices are involved. With a DC 20 check, the creature accepts a minor risk or sacrifice to do as asked.

A Friendly creature does as asked without taking risks or making sacrifices. After some roleplaying and a DC 10 check (presuming the DM thinks there is uncertainty as to the outcome), the creature accepts a minor risk or sacrifice to do as asked. With a DC 20 check, the creature accepts a significant risk or sacrifice to do as asked.

So as you can see, getting a creature to a Friendly attitude can have some significant benefits in that he, she, or it will be willing to accept a significant risk or sacrifice for you. Charm person can make this happen. An Indifferent creature won't do this no matter how high you roll.

Unlike charm person, friends is a spell you cast on yourself and it does not change a creature's attitude. It simply gives you advantage on your Charisma checks (if you need to make any). It's helpful for getting someone to do a thing for you within the limits of their current (Indifferent or Friendly) attitude. Charm person works on a Hostile creature, improves its attitude to Friendly, and gives you advantage on ability checks when interacting socially with that creature. And for an hour to boot.

The short duration and the drawback of turning an Indifferent or Friendly creature Hostile is the rub when it comes friends. But Hostile doesn't necessarily mean violent. At a minimum, the creature opposes the adventurers' actions and might take risks to do so. After some roleplaying and a DC 10 Charisma check (presuming the DM thinks there is uncertainty as to the outcome), the creature offers no help but does no harm. With a DC 20 check, the creature does as asked as long as no risk or sacrifices are involved.

So the smart play when it comes to casting friends in my view is to do it when you don't care if the NPC turns Hostile - because they have no real ability to affect you or because you can make amends later or because you are in disguise. It is still possible in some cases to get a hostile creature to do things for you and it's often possible to get them to improve their attitude. So while you may have to work harder to win them over later, if the exigencies of your goals outweigh what you'll have to pay later to rectify the situation, then it's a fair enough trade.

 

[77IM]

Sword of Spirit, I think you are on the right track.

Comparing this spell to guidance is tricky because many people consider guidance to be overpowered. And I'm not sure that the narrow scope of friends justifies the greater bonus, since social-interaction is like an entire pillar of game play.

Comparing friends to charm person is a lot easier and I think iserith pretty much nailed it.

I don't think a 24-hour immunity is needed, but I do think friends should have some sort of consequence. I think it's enough if the creature realizes that you used magic on it, but doesn't automatically become hostile. But might, based on the DM's discretion and the nature of your interaction with the creature. And it might have other ramifications -- a shopkeeper might kick you out, or even call the town guard. Maybe you earn a reputation for having a charming voice and no-one in town wants to hear you speak for fear of being affected. Some of these consequences veer into "hostile" territory but that's the beauty of DM's discretion -- the consequence can be tailored to the specifics of the interaction. Heck, a target of friends might even be grateful to you, if you used the spell to convince them to do something awesome.

To me, that kind of consequence strikes a good balance between "you have advantage on all social-interaction checks all the time" and "you have a cantrip that creates enemies."

 

[Saeviomagy]

I think changing it to "the target knows they were influenced by magic when the spell expires" is probably the change needed. At present it's nonsensical.

 

[Psikerlord#]

I think Friends is fine. Just dont use it on people you'll see all the time. Most strangers you use it on wont care enough, or be in any position to, take any effective reprisal action, provided the party keeps on moving.

 

[Leatherhead]

Guidance is about 1/2 as useful as advantage is, unless you stack them.
Friends provides advantage, which can also be provided by having any other person or familiar on your team using the Help Action.

Friends could stand to get some kind of numeric buff, something like "Add your casting modifier to the roll." Such a powerful bonus warrants a penalty.

But you should also consider making Guidance and Bless not stack with advantage, in that case also dampen or remove the penalty on Friends.

 

[keterys]

Removing the downsides from Friends and nothing else makes it an average to mediocre cantrip, so you're on the right track there.

The problems with Friends:
1) insufficient duration (1 minute)
2) insufficient effect (advantage) - easily replicated by an ally Helping you to talk
3) unable to be used on hostile
4) spellcasting is visible (cutting into your duration to setup)
5) has a 'makes hostile' downside

You're removing #5. That still means it won't get used often, and when it is used has a fair chance to not have changed the situation. Weirdly, you're also removing the most effective current use of the spell (Disguise Self + Friends). Party on.

 

[Psikerlord#]

Ah true I forgot you can just get an ally to help you, same bonus, no downside.

Hmm that does make friends rather useless. Alas! It should probably give you Expertise in persuasion, instead?

 

[Leatherhead]

Hmm that does make friends rather useless. Alas! It should probably give you Expertise in persuasion, instead?

Using Expertise is probably a bad move in this situation.

It doubles the proficiency bonus, meaning if you aren't trained, you don't get a bonus. It's an unlikely situation from someone building a character for numeric bonuses, but using magic to cover for an ineptitude is a common enough characteristic for mages that it should be thought of.

Otherwise it's a +6 bonus, which is a just about the biggest bonus given out in the game, from a cantrip.

It would also have a weird interaction on Bards, who can already get Expertise. Would it be suddenly Double-Expertise? Not stack at all?

 

[Psikerlord#]

Using Expertise is probably a bad move in this situation.

It doubles the proficiency bonus, meaning if you aren't trained, you don't get a bonus. It's an unlikely situation from someone building a character for numeric bonuses, but using magic to cover for an ineptitude is a common enough characteristic for mages that it should be thought of.

Otherwise it's a +6 bonus, which is a just about the biggest bonus given out in the game, from a cantrip.

It would also have a weird interaction on Bards, who can already get Expertise. Would it be suddenly Double-Expertise? Not stack at all?

Well I would say it treats you as proficient and doubles it. No extra beyond that. If you are already expert arcane trickster or bard, dont choose this spell.