[FR] Sun Elves as evil or neutral instead of good?

[Dark Jezter]

Earlier tonight I was reading Races of Faerun, and an interesting paragraph caught my eye. I know that with the exception of drow, elves tend to be chaotic good mostly. But this passage changed my mind...

"Sun elf prejudice towards other races (humans in particular) can be quite severe. Many sun elves won't even deign to speak to a human and would rather leave a dying man to meet his fate than to save him."

Does this sound like the actions of a good race to you? I honestly can't picture a chaotic good person sitting by and letting an innocent person die because they feel racially superior to them. There is also the issue of the sun elves mating with demons to try and strengthen their bloodlines, which is where the Fey'ri came from. I can't picture any sane good-aligned creature doing this as well.

On the subject of the other axis of alignment... unlike the other surface-dwelling elves, the sun elves appear to be extremely tradition-bound and structured, rarely wanting to leave thier homes. To me, this screams lawful instead of chaotic. I would say that the average sun elf is lawful neutral, with many of them bordering on lawful evil.

Just think about it: extreme rascism, mating with demons, feelings of superiority over pretty much everyone else... just which elf subrace am I talking about here? Sun elves or drow?

Does anybody else agree with me? Are sun elves neutral or evil?

EDIT: Sentance structure, grammar fixes.

 

[Alzrius]

I haven't read RoF yet, so I'm working from a disadvantage here, but I'll try anyway:

Chaotic Good means that they believe in the rights of the individual as being more important than the law, and that personal freedom is paramount...thats how I understand it anyway.

On the aspect of prejudice: nothing about that seems like it'd change their alignment. A common staple of paladins is that they look down their nose at other people; same thing here. You can be Good and still be a jerk. Leaving a dying person to their fate sounds bad...but you can bet that they'd do everything they could to save a dying elf. This seems to fall into the grey area of what alignment covers. Remember, Good adventurers kill monsters all the time, and they don't get their alignment called into question when they don't bother to save a dying orc. To sun elves, humans and other races might as well all be orcs as far as they're concerned. Letting monsters die isn't evil.

On the demon thing...that's harder to justify...I have a hard time seeing this as anything other than something done by a debased group. Are the sun elves as a whole doing this?

Finally, sun elves are tradition-bound, but structured? They don't have a strong central government, and everyone pretty much tends to themselves. Sounds chaotic enough to me.

 

[Gez]

As I've explained several time to the elf-worshippers on boards.wizards.com, sun elves are lawful evil and reactionnary, that's why they suck.

My latest rants ?

Here:

Originally posted by Jeiroth:
The gold elf Starym were not truly evil, they were...missguided.

The same could be said of orcs, drows, red dragons, demons, devils, night hags, kobolds, and anything else with "evil" in its alignment in the MM.

They were evil because they were evil, period.

Originally posted by Evearain:
They may be evil from human point of view. They' re only trying to not allow doom of Myth Drannor occure. For example from elven point of view killing good aligned human ti save evil elf is a GOOD deed.

From a demon's point of view, raping all member of a royal family to death would be a GOOD deed, since the horrible death of the rulers would sow chaos and anarchy to the kingdom, which would be liberating people from the shackle of law and order.

D&D is not a place for moral relativism. These nazi elves do evil deeds. They therefore are evil. Period.

And here:

Originally posted by Mordrayn:
Since the elves are obviously on the decline, "retreating" slowly but surely and constantly giving up lands to the aggressor races (e.g. humans, goblinoids, orcs, etc), their once huge and beautiful empires all but lost to myth ...

First reason why they're lawful (of the lawful-loser variety), rather than chaotic.

Elves, all things considered, reactionnary. They reject change, innovation, and novelty, which are seen as threats and agressions. This reject is not a carefully, all-things-put-in-the-balance, rejection -- it's irrational, gut-instinct reaction, new=bad, period.

Their reactionnary mindset shows in:

Nostalgia. It was better before. Convinced that the world goes to hell, that the old ways (who were, by definition, superior) are forgotten or perverted, and that everything now is but a shallow reflect of the glorious, obviously glorious old times; they live in the past. An idealized past. Back in the days, wondrous, awe-inspiring mythals were everywhere. The folks lived in peace and harmony, magic and culture blossomed, the world was healthier and the grass greener.

Resentment. Things now are awful, but that's the fault of these foreign devils. The races of elf, human, dwarf, gnome and hin lived in peace and were happy under the just, enlightened, benevolent and wise rulership of our admirable Coronals, until, sadly, we trusted them too much and allowed them in our country (rather than friendily shooting all tresspassers on sight). Oh, blessed Seldarine, what folly have we made ? All Hells break loose, and the traitors we called our friend destroyed everything we have achieved; jalous of our grandeur, and unable to rivalize, they preferred to undermine the wonders of elfcraft, by their mere presence. We tried to avoid the worse by massacring them all without mercy, but it was too late. May these demons be cursed !

Isolationnism. When you don't want to acknowledge the changes, and you don't think you can fight it, the only option is to flee. Flee to another, pure, world, uncontaminated by the insidious presence of those that don't think like you. The elves had Evermeet for that, and the other folk should be thankful for the existance of that island, because otherwise, the will to start anew is synonym to genocide (like Chinese Great Jump Forward or the red khmer's mass murder of 1/3 their country's population). As the old world was profaned by the foul presence of these damn subelven hords, breeding like rodents and even more destructive, we had no choice but flee to the safety of Evermeet, the promised land, the Torilian Paradise. There, in our exile, we would wait until the parasitic infestation, deprived of the Light coming from our Grandeur, kill themselves and die all to the last. Then, only then, we could go back to Faerûn and heal the poor land. Meanwhile, we would revel in our beauty and safekeep our magnificent sacred traditions, without any corrupting outsider influence.

Scapegoatism. We pose the postulate that the world is going on its doom. Why ? because it was better before, and things continue to go worse because they can't go better, since change can't be to the better, only blind and total obedience to the ancestral tradition is good, remember. We also pose the postulate that it's the bloody stranger's fault, that's obvious, they're not like us, so they're responsible for everything that goes bad (and everything goes bad because it was better before). Naturally, if the perturbative elements (non-elves) are removed, things will stop to get worse. So, killing non-elves will save the world. Eldeth Veluuthra ! Victorious blade of the People, lead us to the destruction of the Not-People devils ! From their shed foul blood, green forests will grow high and strong ! May the Seldarine bless us in this most holy quest against Evil aliens !

The elves never miss the opportunity of claiming their suporiority above everyone. They are especially contemptuous of humans, and always reminds them of things like "We were already building flying crystal castle when you were wearing crude bear skin and hid in caves, hurling feces at each others". That's because their alignment is not chaotic good, but lawful loser.

Were they not so snuck-up in their idea everything was better before, fate is unfair toward their absolute perfection, and that's all the fault of human, they would recognize the fact.

And the fact is, they're a senile race. Great irony, isn't it ? While the individual elves are ageless, their collective unconscious is senile. Their neurons have hardened and can't bend now, only shatter. Their mind is old, rusted, crippled. They claim they could build flying crystal castle before ? Well, why can't they now ? They forgot all their wonders, because they're old, aged, and dying. They have all but themselves to blame for that, their stubborn grumpiness is what accelerate their decline.

But it's so easier, when you're old, at death's door, suffering from Alzheimer memory troubles, and Parkinson muscular control troubles, to remind the young healthy adults you have seen them in diapers and wetting their bed. It's so easier to close your mind and refuse to see the real decadence than to accept to see the fact and change your ways...

Now, it's the elves who are in diapers, as their sphincter control is dead, they move in wheelchair, and spend their days in bed, watching soap-operas and insulting the nurse who comes to empty the pot.

And everyone find they are cool. They aren't. They would be if they were chaotic good as they are supposed to.

 

[Alzrius]

D&D is not a place for moral relativism.

Point; its a place of moral absolutes. Ironically, despite what you said, this must mean that if the elves are listed as Chaotic Good, then they are. The only question is to interpret how in the actions that we know they do.

'nuff said.

 

[Gez]

Point; its a place of moral absolutes. Ironically, despite what you said, this must mean that if the elves are listed as Chaotic Good, then they are. The only question is to interpret how in the actions that we know they do.

A paladin is lawful good. A paladin, for a reason or another, becomes a serial rapist/killer/cannibale. Is he still lawful good ? No way. Action dictate alignment, not the reverse. To quote the Player's Handbook 3e, page 88: "If your character acts in a way more appropriate to another alignment, the DM may decide that your character's alignment has changed to match her actions." Elves, as a whole, are usually chaotic good. This means that a majority of them are chaotic good. But not necessarily an overwhelming majority. If you add together the populations of moon elves, sea elves, wood elves, you get the 51+% of surface elves that justify the "usually chaotic good" mention. Sun elves are usually lawful neutral, with evil tendancies.

 

[Alzrius]

A paladin is lawful good. A paladin, for a reason or another, becomes a serial rapist/killer/cannibale. Is he still lawful good ? No way. Action dictate alignment, not the reverse.

You forgot to take that analogy to its conclusion though. Namely, that when a paladin does that, then the authority figure over the game (the DM) informs the player that his paladin is no longer Good.

Now, in RoF, the sun elves are listed as CG, despite what they have done, how they think/act, etc. The authority in this case (WotC), has not made them change alignment, ergo, they have not committed any action that needs to have them, as a whole, change alignment. That's the bottom line, that since the book says sun elves are CG, they're CG. You can change that if you want to for your campaign though.

To quote the Player's Handbook 3e, page 88: "If your character acts in a way more appropriate to another alignment, the DM may decide that your character's alignment has changed to match her actions."

And that's all well and good for your character. For those NPC's, the DM of those products (WotC) apparently has decided that they've not done anything outside the alignment of CG.

Elves, as a whole, are usually chaotic good. This means that a majority of them are chaotic good. But not necessarily an overwhelming majority. If you add together the populations of moon elves, sea elves, wood elves, you get the 51+% of surface elves that justify the "usually chaotic good" mention. Sun elves are usually lawful neutral, with evil tendancies.

This is incorrect. Alignment differences by subtype are noted (such as how wood elves, for example, are not CG, something you overlooked). Furthermore, your paradigm would mean that every single other individual in those remaining subtypes of elves would have to then be CG to make sure they balance out the LN sun elves, and we know this isn't the case.

Nothing says that sun elves are different by alignment along the racial subtype lines. Furthermore, the product we're working from, RoF, says nothing about that either. While the alignment parameters of "Usually" allow for differences in alignment in various individual elves, a racial subtype having a different alignment as a whole have gotten a mention. Furthermore, the change you are suggesting (LN or LE) is of your own devising, and not noted in the book.

Basically, you make good ideas for how you could do things in your campaign Gez, but the book says what the book says, and what it doesn't say isn't there (unless its in another book, which it isn't in this case). Nothing says sun elves are anything but CG as a whole, so they are.

 

[Dark Jezter]

EDIT: Forgot to read all of Alzrius' post. Never mind. ^^;

 

[Dark Jezter]

And that's all well and good for your character. For those NPC's, the DM of those products (WotC) apparently has decided that they've not done anything outside the alignment of CG.

and

Nothing says that sun elves are different by alignment along the racial subtype lines. Furthermore, the product we're working from, RoF, says nothing about that either. While the alignment parameters of "Usually" allow for differences in alignment in various individual elves, a racial subtype having a different alignment as a whole have gotten a mention. Furthermore, the change you are suggesting (LN or LE) is of your own devising, and not noted in the book.

Basically, you make good ideas for how you could do things in your campaign Gez, but the book says what the book says, and what it doesn't say isn't there (unless its in another book, which it isn't in this case). Nothing says sun elves are anything but CG as a whole, so they are.

If WotC said that the sun elves are chaotic good (I can't check right now, since I'm at work and don't have my copy of Races of Faerun handy at the moment), then it looks like they contradicted themselves. The way they are described clearly paints them as LN, with many of them having LE tendancies. Indeed, it is hard for the reader to sympathize with the sun elves as they are presented in RoF. Gez really hit the nail on the head when he was describing the sun elf mindset in his post above.

Frankly, I'm a little puzzled at why the sun elves and the drow hate each other so badly, since they are more alike than either one would like to admit.

 

[GenLang]

Frankly, I'm a little puzzled at why the sun elves and the drow hate each other so badly, since they are more alike than either one would like to admit.

Maybe that similarity is why.

 

[Ranger REG]

Sun Elves prefer to practice Isolationism and would avoid contact with non-elf at all cost. They would risk letting someone die within their territory (whom they would deem as "trespassers") if it means that their society is kept secret from them. They are still good at one another, which you can't say for the drow elves, and they do not reap destruction against another race, which you cannot say for the drow elves. They prefer to be left alone.