Flame Arrow & Telekinesis Issues: Discuss

[strongbow]

By the letter, it appears that flame arrow is eligible for Energy Substitution/Energy Affinity/Maximize/Empower. I would like to discuss both letter and spirit of the rules. The spell is reprinted below for your convenience.

A few issues to discuss: 1-5 are serious, 6 is a wildcard.

1) B/c the spell says it bestows extra damage on ammunition and does not bestow the flaming property, the extra 1d6 damage of fire damage from this spell should stack with the flaming property of weapons.

2) B/c the spell has an energy descriptor, it may be substituted to other types. B/c it may be sub. to other types, it stacks with itself only if each cast of flame arrow has been substituted to a different type. Thus, two casts of Flame Arrow (Fire) don't stack with one another, but a cast of Flame Arrow (Electricity) and a cast of Flame Arrow (Fire) do stack.

3) Since the spell puts an effect on ammunition, the ammunition enhanced by this spell does not lose any of its effect if used with a violent thrust with Telekinesis. Ergo, a 10th level cast of Telekinesis could violent thrust 10 arrows, dealing 1d4 arrow damage and +1d6 fire damage for a regular flame arrow.

4) Since TK may use ammunition for the violent thrust option, any enhancements of the ammunition still apply. If you have +2 arrows and use TK to thrust them, then you should gain +2 on your attack roll for each arrow, and +2 damage on each arrow. The fact that the arrows are being used in a spell is irrelevant; they still have the same effect when striking the target, and since you have to roll to hit you get the bonus to hit, and since each arrow does damage seperately the arrows get their bonus to damage.

5) Much like shuriken (sp?), a caster of TK using violent thrust only gets sneak attack on one object, no matter how many objects are hurled. Of course the caster must still abide by all the restrictions on sneak attack, so will probably have to catch someone flatfooted.

6) Bob the TK caster is not cheesy for combining a 5th level spell with potentially 4 Flame Arrow spells with only 10 minute/lvl duration and another 3rd level Greater Magic Weapon.

4)


3.5 Flame Arrow from SRD

Flame Arrow
Transmutation [Fire]
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: Fifty projectiles, all of which must be in contact with each other at the time of casting
Duration: 10 min./level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
You turn ammunition (such as arrows, bolts, shuriken, and stones) into fiery projectiles. Each piece of ammunition deals an extra 1d6 points of fire damage to any target it hits. A flaming projectile can easily ignite a flammable object or structure, but it won’t ignite a creature it strikes.
Material Component: A drop of oil and a small piece of flint.

 

[Li Shenron]

I am not sure about 2) if they would stack when choosing a different type of damage... but the rest seems right to me. Potentially quite a lot of damage :\

If it doesn't stack with itself, the average damage is probably quite close to a Fireball or Lightning Bolt, but it depends a lot about your chances to hit.

The sequence of standard actions is like:
1- cast FA
2- cast TK and thrust arrows 1-10
3- cast TK and thrust arrows 11-20
4- cast TK and thrust arrows 21-30
5- cast TK and thrust arrows 31-40
6- cast TK and thrust arrows 41-50
repeat

That is potentially 50d4+50d6 in 6 rounds (avg 300, or 50/round), for the cost of a 3rd level spell and five 5th level spells. That damage assumes however that you are going to always hit, but since you likely aren't, the true average it could be much less.
In the same time and for the same spell slots you could have cast one normal Fireball/LBolt and five Empowered Fireballs/LBolts for a potential 8,5 x 10d6 (avg 297.5, very close!), with the real average being this time dependent on the target's Reflex save. But wait... this way you could have hit more targets in the area!

If you let it stack, for example if you cast FA once Fire and once Frost, the new base damage is 1d4+2d6, at the cost of 1 extra 3rd level spell and 1 extra standard action before TK. The sequence of standard actions is like:
1- cast FA
2- cast FA
3- cast TK and thrust arrows 1-10
4- cast TK and thrust arrows 11-20
5- cast TK and thrust arrows 21-30
6- cast TK and thrust arrows 31-40
7- cast TK and thrust arrows 41-50
repeat

That's a total of 50d4+100d6 in 7 rounds (avg 475, or 68/round).
Cast FA 3 times and that's 50d4+150d6 in 8 rounds (avg 650, or 81/round).
Cast FA 4 times and that's 50d4+200d6 in 9 rounds (avg 825, or 92/round).
Cast FA 5 times and that's 50d4+250d6 in 10 rounds (avg 1000, or 100/round).

I am a bit flaky today, it's possible that my calculations are all off

 

[Li Shenron]

...now that I think about it, I am not ever sure if you can cast TK and thrust the arrows with the same action or you need two separate standard actions...

 

[Shallown]

Li I think the idea is more to cast the various Flame arrows with energy sub and then carry them around and later caster TK and use them as the ammo.

So you could lay down at 10th level 10d4 + 10d6 X each energy type used by the flame arrows. Not a game breaking combo for a 10th caster using a 5th and some 3rd level slots. Has some advantages over big area spells since you control your targets and it is also a no save, no SR attack. Still gotta hit but combined with some other nasty things like Bane arrows and such you could lay some impressive smack down if you knew who your target was gonna be.

An interesting but not unbalanced combo. Unless of course I am missing some sick combo. I am assuming just core books stuff since I cold exploit this a lot using third party stuff.

later

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

1) B/c the spell says it bestows extra damage on ammunition and does not bestow the flaming property, the extra 1d6 damage of fire damage from this spell should stack with the flaming property of weapons.

This would violate the different spell - same effect rule in the back of the DMG, so no stacking flame arrow with flaming weapons.

2) ...stacks with itself only if each cast of flame arrow has been substituted to a different type.

Agreed, altho a Cold Flaming Arrow would not stack with frost weapons.. etc.

3) agree

4) Since TK may use ammunition for the violent thrust option, any enhancements of the ammunition still apply.

I am not familiar with the TK rules, but in my opinion any + to hit or damage is only effective when the weapon is used in its intended manner. Hence a +2 arrow is no easier to stick in an Orcs eye ala Legolas. Flavor wise, perhaps the arrows are lighter and fly faster, therefore a straighter path and deeper penetration. Anyway, I would not allow alternate methods of attacking with ammunition to use base numerical enhancements unless proven otherwise.

5) agree

6) Bob the TK caster is not cheesy for combining a 5th level spell with potentially 4 Flame Arrow spells with only 10 minute/lvl duration and another 3rd level Greater Magic Weapon.

Not cheesy, altho maybe a bit special purpose.

 

[strongbow]

TK from the SRD is below. Note that arrows cause damage as daggers of their size, which will be 1d4 for your medium size characters. The spell specifically mentions that you can use arrows with it. Now I ask you if you cast Flame Arrow on some sling stones and used them, you would get the bonus damage. Just b/c the arrows are not fired from a bow doesn't mean that you don't get the damage. Surely you would concede that using TK to propel sling stones is very much like using a sling? The argument that you don't get bonuses b/c the objects are not fired in "their intended manner" is not a good one.

A few points to refute your arguments, Primitive Screwhead. First concerning stacking issues, I quote from PH 171-172. (This is the relevant text, I don't know of another in the DMG.

"Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually don't stack with themselves...More generally, two bonuses of the same type don't stack even if they come from different spells (or from other effects other than spells; see Bonus Types above.) I will concede that Flame Arrow does not stack with weapon properties such as flaming and shock. I thought that the weapon damage was termed bonus damage as in 3.0, but the sneaky designers changed the weapon properties to extra damage this edition.

Second, the spell says it provides extra damage, not bonus damage. Extra damage stacks, for example, when you have a bow with flaming and shock. Bonus damage is different. A +1 bonus to hit is very different from +1 to hit. A +1 bonus to damage is different from +1 extra damage. Bonuses don't stack, but extra damage does. You get two kinds of extra damage with your flaming shock bow: flaming and electrical, on the same ammunition. Named bonuses (I checked guys, the American Heritage Dictionary says the plural of bonus is bonuses ) don't stack, and in most cases neither do unnamed bonuses from the same source. Flame Arrow damage is not a bonus, so the rules on bonus stacking do not apply in total, but rather to the types of damage.
Third, if your argument were true in reference to spells that deal damage, a twinned spell would not stack because the damage comes from the same source. The same applies to an Energy Admixtured spell, damage of different energy types from one spell would not stack in your view.
Fourth, I reference DMG p 221 which states "Weapons come in two basic categories: melee and ranged. Some of the weapons listed as melee weapons (for example, daggers) can also be used as ranged weapons. In this case, their enhancement bonus applies to either type of attack." If I stab someone with a +2 arrow, I get +2 to hit and +2 to damage. By logical extention, any other magical properties of weapons/ammunition apply, regardless of how the weapon/ammunition is delivered to its target.
Sixth, I have not found anywhere in the 3.5 DMG where is says that the flaming and frost weapon properties are incompatible. That was the case in 3.0, but I challenge you to find a direct reference in 3.5.


Telekinesis
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Target or Targets: See text
Duration: Concentration (up to 1 round/ level) or instantaneous; see text
Saving Throw: Will negates (object) or None; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes (object); see text
You move objects or creatures by concentrating on them. Depending on the version selected, the spell can provide a gentle, sustained force, perform a variety of combat maneuvers, or exert a single short, violent thrust.
Sustained Force: A sustained force moves an object weighing no more than 25 pounds per caster level (maximum 375 pounds at 15th level) up to 20 feet per round. A creature can negate the effect on an object it possesses with a successful Will save or with spell resistance.
This version of the spell can last 1 round per caster level, but it ends if you cease concentration. The weight can be moved vertically, horizontally, or in both directions. An object cannot be moved beyond your range. The spell ends if the object is forced beyond the range. If you cease concentration for any reason, the object falls or stops.
An object can be telekinetically manipulated as if with one hand. For example, a lever or rope can be pulled, a key can be turned, an object rotated, and so on, if the force required is within the weight limitation. You might even be able to untie simple knots, though delicate activities such as these require Intelligence checks.
Combat Maneuver: Alternatively, once per round, you can use telekinesis to perform a bull rush, disarm, grapple (including pin), or trip. Resolve these attempts as normal, except that they don’t provoke attacks of opportunity, you use your caster level in place of your base attack bonus (for disarm and grapple), you use your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer) in place of your Strength or Dexterity modifier, and a failed attempt doesn’t allow a reactive attempt by the target (such as for disarm or trip). No save is allowed against these attempts, but spell resistance applies normally. This version of the spell can last 1 round per caster level, but it ends if you cease concentration.
Violent Thrust: Alternatively, the spell energy can be spent in a single round. You can hurl one object or creature per caster level (maximum 15) that are within range and all within 10 feet of each other toward any target within 10 feet per level of all the objects. You can hurl up to a total weight of 25 pounds per caster level (maximum 375 pounds at 15th level).
You must succeed on attack rolls (one per creature or object thrown) to hit the target with the items, using your base attack bonus + your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer). Weapons cause standard damage (with no Strength bonus; note that arrows or bolts deal damage as daggers of their size when used in this manner). Other objects cause damage ranging from 1 point per 25 pounds (for less dangerous objects) to 1d6 points of damage per 25 pounds (for hard, dense objects).
Creatures who fall within the weight capacity of the spell can be hurled, but they are allowed Will saves (and spell resistance) to negate the effect, as are those whose held possessions are targeted by the spell. If a telekinesed creature is hurled against a solid surface, it takes damage as if it had fallen 10 feet (1d6 points).

 

[the Jester]

Sounds like a nice tactic.

However, I'd argue that an enhancement bonus doesn't work when the item in question is not used as intended (ie, you don't get your shield's enhancement bonus when you bash with it and you don't get your greatsword's bonus when you hurl it).

 

[Scion]

when you hurl it? do you mean with tk or by simply throwing it?

tk may be up in the air, but I would definately think that throwing your greatsword would allow you all of its enhancements.

I think that the easiest way to adjucate tk in this case would simply make the arrows actually be attacking. That way you get your bonus to hit and damage all as normal, but the arrows will also break as normal (and be used up, as though by attacking, which they are ).

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Reply to Strongbow

First off.. you posted this thread to ask for interpretations on rules, which I provided. So don't flipping "<Sigh>" at me without reading my post.

Sling stone.. roundish objects that impact on any side to deal damage.
Arrows.. long pointy sticks that need to have the proper momentum in order to properly deal damage.
Swords/dagger.. sharp metal things that impact on the edge to deal damage.

2 of the three require the weapon to impact on a specific plane and in a specific manner to be effective. Therefore, if you don't emply them in a manner that consistantly impacts the correct plane, you would not get any flat bonus to hit/damage. Besides. I did state this is not RAW but how I would treat it... as RAW does not address this point.

On to more entertaining things:

Additional Damage Dice: Some magic weapons deal additional dice of damage. Unlike other modifiers to damage, additional dice of damage are not multiplied when the attacker scores a critical hit.

'Extra damage' is not a 'game term'. Additional Dice is the proper term, and neither has any impact on whether the idea at hand will work.

Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths: In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies.

This is the part that keeps the Flaming + Fire Arrow from stacking. Which I note you agreed on.

You failed to note that I agreed that Frost + Fire Arrow stacks. As would Fire Arrow (Acid) + Fire Arrow (Cold) + Fire Arrow (Fire) + Shocking Burst.

To your other comments:
3rd > Twinned spell is one spell, not two, and therefore does not violate the 2 effects rule

4th > You quote the DMG which mentions that some melee weapons can be used as ranged weapons and assume that means ranged weapons can be used for melee weapons?

5th > My bad, you didn't have a 5th point.

6th > Did I say that? I challenge you to find a direct reference in my posts above...


Lastly, I visit forums like this to expand my knowledge base as a GM and to share information and opinions. Not to flame, argue, or be generally uncivil. I am acutely aware that the written medium makes intent hard to infer at times, which means a more stringent requirement to carefully and fully read the posts and grant the others grace in that they may not be aware of thier posts caustic nature.

JMHO

 

[Droid101]

Sling stone.. roundish objects that impact on any side to deal damage.
Arrows.. long pointy sticks that need to have the proper momentum in order to properly deal damage.
Swords/dagger.. sharp metal things that impact on the edge to deal damage.

2 of the three require the weapon to impact on a specific plane and in a specific manner to be effective.

Don't take this the wrong way, I'm just providing more argument:

A throwing axe needs to hit on a "certain plane" as well, doesn't it?