Fighting Wraiths aka how to annoy your players

[the8bitdeity]

So I ran the big Wraith fight from SoW: Shadow Rift of Umbraforge, aka the mid-boss fight.

In short I like the tactics the status effects played on my players, but an entire fight with 6 insubstantial enemies (all the time) was more than annoying to them.

What are people's thoughts on the wraith specifically?

Was it just a poor encounter design having 6 insub monsters?

I almost want a mechanism to break their insub until the start of their next turn.

Thoughts?

 

[Sanzuo]

So I ran the big Wraith fight from SoW: Shadow Rift of Umbraforge, aka the mid-boss fight.

In short I like the tactics the status effects played on my players, but an entire fight with 6 insubstantial enemies (all the time) was more than annoying to them.

What are people's thoughts on the wraith specifically?

Was it just a poor encounter design having 6 insub monsters?

I almost want a mechanism to break their insub until the start of their next turn.

Thoughts?

I don't know... insubstantial doesn't seem like that much of an annoyance. All it really means is that the players do half damage, same as the creature having double hit points.

Now I don't know what level this took place at but if you want to be really annoying have the wraiths float over the player character's heads (since they can fly.) Have them attack the melee people then shift up out of melee range every other round. Better yet, I think they can phase... so have them drifting in and out of solid objects during the fight.

I find I must do everything in my power to make my encounters as difficult as possible. My players are too mechanically adept to cut them any slack.

 

[the8bitdeity]

It was a level 5 encounter (5 wraiths, plus one mad wraith) against a party of 5 fairly optimized level 5s (cleric, paladin, fighter, wizard, ranger). It just seemed to drag on forever, probably due to the stacking of weakened + insubstantial.

That said I'm suggesting the alchemical wizard pick up "Ghoststrike Oil" formula soon since there will probably be more insub monsters.

 

[Plane Sailing]

The other thing about insubstantial wraiths is that it doubles the effectiveness of their regeneration.

If you wanted to make insubstantial less of an issue, what I'd suggest is a magic item (say a wand) which allows force effects to deal full damage to insubstantial creatures (in the similar but lesser way to the paragon feat which does full damage +1d10 with all force attacks).

BTW, since you have a paladin and a cleric, their radiant damage (which does an extra 5 damage AND switches off their regeneration for a turn) should make the wraiths less of a fearsome foe.

 

[Uruush]

Radiant damage does 2 additional damage to a Vulnerable 5 radiant damage foe.

Insubstantial foes are nasty. I just ran an encounter with a Moon Wraith (high AC, hovering, phasing, insubstantial, Regen 5). I predetermined a condition that would do 20 damage to it when met because I knew it would be tough.

 

[the8bitdeity]

The other thing about insubstantial wraiths is that it doubles the effectiveness of their regeneration.

If you wanted to make insubstantial less of an issue, what I'd suggest is a magic item (say a wand) which allows force effects to deal full damage to insubstantial creatures (in the similar but lesser way to the paragon feat which does full damage +1d10 with all force attacks).

BTW, since you have a paladin and a cleric, their radiant damage (which does an extra 5 damage AND switches off their regeneration for a turn) should make the wraiths less of a fearsome foe.

Yeah, the trick with the radiant damage and the Divine characters was they're both melee oriented. The Paladin effectively used his mark, and holy strike. The Cleric, OTOH, wasn't nearly as effective with the laser.

 

[the8bitdeity]

Radiant damage does 2 additional damage to a Vulnerable 5 radiant damage foe.

Insubstantial foes are nasty. I just ran an encounter with a Moon Wraith (high AC, hovering, phasing, insubstantial, Regen 5). I predetermined a condition that would do 20 damage to it when met because I knew it would be tough.

I'm thinking of upping the vulnerable radiant to 10 on wraiths / specters, just so it effectively does an extra 5 damage. I don't necessarily like the fact that vulnerability is affected by insubstantiality. That said for the on / off insub. monsters, I don't want to eliminate the 1/2 dmg. I think I'll rule that for wraiths / spectres their Vulnerable goes up to 10. Just to reward players for actually trying to use the weakness against them.

 

[Scholar & Brutalman]

So I ran the big Wraith fight from SoW: Shadow Rift of Umbraforge, aka the mid-boss fight.

In short I like the tactics the status effects played on my players, but an entire fight with 6 insubstantial enemies (all the time) was more than annoying to them.

What are people's thoughts on the wraith specifically?

Was it just a poor encounter design having 6 insub monsters?

I almost want a mechanism to break their insub until the start of their next turn.

Thoughts?

I had the same problem with that fight. It was exacerbated by the wraiths attacking reflex and weakening on a hit: not only were the defenders attacking insubstantial monsters, they were usually doing half damage to begin with. The Seething Wraith also seemed to have too many HP, but I cut them down before the fight.

The Umbraforge Tower ended up with a similar problem but a different cause: the designer seemed to be very fond of throwing level 8 soldiers at the level 5 party. Another trip into grindspace. I'm starting to think that soldiers are a role they didn't really need.

My guess is that this module was an early 4e effort by the author. A lot of what we know now about 4e fights may not have been known in the playtest.

 

[Herschel]

My suggestion would just be to House Rule that the vulnerability is not nerfed by the insubstantial if you feel it's an issue. It's not a huge thing and gives the paladin and/or cleric a chance to shine. It won't dramatically nerf the undead defenses either and keep it a challenge still.

Not every fight should be three rounds of tactical PC beatdown.

 

[Gort]

Insubstantial seems like a pretty useless rule to have. All attacks do half damage (except some specific ghost-killing weapons that nobody has) but as a result, they've got a lot fewer hitpoints than a normal monster.

I just doubled their hitpoints and forgot about insubstantial.

I guess there might be rules repercussions (for example there might be a power out there that says "if you do more than 10 damage on your attack, the enemy is knocked prone" that would be affected, but I haven't heard of one) but it seems a lot easier than reminding my players to do half damage every time they hit.



Oh yes, if you want to be a rat bastard GM with wraiths, hide a mad wraith in a wall near the players. They can't hurt it, but the aura still gets them.