Fighting monsters 3 size categories bigger

[blargney the second]

I have a few questions about combat with much larger creatures. I can't find references for this info in my manuals, so page refs would be very helpful! If you're a medium creature fighting a gargantuan creature:

1) Do you have to share its space to attack it if you have no reach?
2) What if you do have reach?
3) Depending on the answer to 1 & 2, can you flank a creature that much larger?
4) Can you get sneak attack damage, or does this count as inaccessible vitals?
5) Does any of that change if fighting underwater?

Thanks!
-blarg

 

[green slime]

I have a few questions about combat with much larger creatures. I can't find references for this info in my manuals, so page refs would be very helpful! If you're a medium creature fighting a gargantuan creature:

1) Do you have to share its space to attack it if you have no reach?
2) What if you do have reach?
3) Depending on the answer to 1 & 2, can you flank a creature that much larger?
4) Can you get sneak attack damage, or does this count as inaccessible vitals?
5) Does any of that change if fighting underwater?

Thanks!
-blarg

1&2) Most medium creatures have a reach of 5', but if you for some reason don't have that reach, yes, you would have to enter its space. Can't think of a medium or small race that doesn't have a reach of 1 square.

3) according to the rules, yes.

4) as 3.

5) nope.

But that is just my interpretation of RAW. There really isn't much common sense involved when attacking a gargantuan humanoids's left foot big toe (or ankle), that you should gain flanking and sneak attack, because your ally is standing next to his right foot.

Gargantuan creatures apparently have very tender feet....

 

[blargney the second]

*chuckle* You'd think they'd learn not to wear sandals.

By "no reach" I meant the usual 5' reach. Btw, this is all for an underwater fight with a gargantuan eel, so toes need not apply.

 

[Angrydad]

I myself have wondered about some of the issues that come into play with monsters that are significantly larger than the PCs. For example, a fighter in my party recently vorpaled the head off an ancient blue dragon in the first round of combat (talk about aggravating). The dragon is size Gargantuan or Colossal, so how does a vorpal weapon sever the head? My group and I have ruled that in the case of something like a dragon it is possible because they have long necks and snake their heads down into reach in order to bite at the characters. But what if your characters have to fight some immense humanoid giant? How would they possibly be able to vorpal its head off unless they were flying? One of the party members has joked that somehow the magic of a vorpal sword causes the head to fall off regardless of where you strike the monster (so a shot to the sandalled toe causes the head to fly off), but we don't really take that suggestion seriously.

 

[irdeggman]

I myself have wondered about some of the issues that come into play with monsters that are significantly larger than the PCs. For example, a fighter in my party recently vorpaled the head off an ancient blue dragon in the first round of combat (talk about aggravating). The dragon is size Gargantuan or Colossal, so how does a vorpal weapon sever the head? My group and I have ruled that in the case of something like a dragon it is possible because they have long necks and snake their heads down into reach in order to bite at the characters. But what if your characters have to fight some immense humanoid giant? How would they possibly be able to vorpal its head off unless they were flying? One of the party members has joked that somehow the magic of a vorpal sword causes the head to fall off regardless of where you strike the monster (so a shot to the sandalled toe causes the head to fly off), but we don't really take that suggestion seriously.

Or simply the "timing" of the blow corresponded to when the head was closest. Remember that creatures are assumed to be "moving" during the entire combat which is why you have no "facing".

 

[Angrydad]

Or simply the "timing" of the blow corresponded to when the head was closest. Remember that creatures are assumed to be "moving" during the entire combat which is why you have no "facing".

True, but what about a Gargantuan size humanoid type monster? How would you ever get at its neck without having a Fly spell or some similar magic? I suppose if you've got a vorpal weapon the chances of being able to fly are pretty good, but for the sake of a hypothetical situation, lets pretend you can't. How would the vorpal effect make sense?
Aside from that situation, what you said about the head being in range because of moving is how I justify cutting off a massive dragon's head.

 

[green slime]

One of the party members has joked that somehow the magic of a vorpal sword causes the head to fall off regardless of where you strike the monster (so a shot to the sandalled toe causes the head to fly off), but we don't really take that suggestion seriously.

LOL! I think that is brilliant!

Unfortunately, there really should be some kind of common sense applied.

But the same applies for 5-foot steping. Apparently Gargantuans of all kinds can only adjust 5 feet during a battle, if they are going to Full Attack, or avoid provoking an AoO....

A sensible house-rule would apply that most creatures could "adjust" a distance equal to their reach.

 

[Angrydad]

LOL! I think that is brilliant!

Unfortunately, there really should be some kind of common sense applied.

But the same applies for 5-foot steping. Apparently Gargantuans of all kinds can only adjust 5 feet during a battle, if they are going to Full Attack, or avoid provoking an AoO....

A sensible house-rule would apply that most creatures could "adjust" a distance equal to their reach.

My group and I also decided that larger monsters take larger "5 foot" steps. It didn't make sense for the massive white dragon to only be able to adjust 5 feet without provoking AoO. However, I would say that monsters like dragons, who have two reach entries thanks to their long necks, would only be able to 5' step the shorter of their two reach entries.

 

[frankthedm]

But that is just my interpretation of RAW. There really isn't much common sense involved when attacking a gargantuan humanoids's left foot big toe (or ankle), that you should gain flanking and sneak attack, because your ally is standing next to his right foot.

Gargantuan creatures apparently have very tender feet....

What do you mean? RAW covers this already, specifically in the rules for sneak attack.

The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

There ya go.

 

[green slime]

What do you mean? RAW covers this already, specifically in the rules for sneak attack.

The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

There ya go.

Thanx for that. But now onto the specific:

Where are a gargantuan eel's vital spots? Given the pinpricks a human-sized rogue is going to attack with, would you rule out all sneak attack damage even if the combatants were submerged?

Lets face it, you'd be hard pressed to kill a human with a thumbtack...