Using the options from teh advanced fighter guide, where guns are common (simple proficiency) much like they were in the old west, how do fighters do? The heavy armor becomes much less useful, and I noted, to my surprise that the fighter doesn't seem to have much in the way of variant archtypes that make use of guns. How could they (and classes such as rangers) remain effective in a setting where six guns and winchesters are common--without that is, stepping on the gunslinger class?
Fighters and other classes in a heavy gun campaign
- Thread starter cgraph
- Start date
Well, considering that Rangers get some ranged combat feats for free if they so choose and tend to be more reliant on light armor and Dex I think they'd do just fine. Fighters can also use they're weapon training to become excellent gun users, and their armor training means they eventually wouldn't be sacking mobility for armor. You could perhaps make magic armor enhancements be Deflection bonuses, which would apply to Touch AC, and thus allow such characters to be harder to hit in gun combat. Also, you could just follow the rule that anything outside the first range increment is no longer a Touch Attack.
One last alternative would be to steal the Class Defense Bonus mechanic that I've seen in Unearthed Arcana and in Star Wars d20. Basically each class gets a bonus to AC that is purely based on level and armor functions as damage reduction instead.
One last alternative would be to steal the Class Defense Bonus mechanic that I've seen in Unearthed Arcana and in Star Wars d20. Basically each class gets a bonus to AC that is purely based on level and armor functions as damage reduction instead.
I'm unclear why this is seen as a significant issue. OK, guns are simple weapons, so anyone can use them, and they act as ranged touch attacks in the first range increment, so armor isn't helping AC.
If they're outside that first increment, regular AC applies. If they're inside that first range increment, they're pretty easy to close in with for melee combat - at which point reloading or firing that gun provokes an attack of opportunity. Or the fighter can back away instead - now he's outside the gun's range increment, but well within his bow's first increment, and both combatants need to hit normal AC's.
Who's using the guns? Other warriors? Well, the fighter can use one too, if he so chooses. Arcane casters? If they weren't using the gun, presumably they'd be using spells, most of which are also range touch attacks (at better range in many cases) or don't need to roll to hit at all.
Maybe the Fighter should consider defensive items that don't provide armor bonuses, but generate deflection or other bonuses instead. Just as useful against many attacks, and more useful against touch attacks.
Maybe give the Fighter the ability to access the Gun Tank ability to modify his armor to be useful against firearms. It seems that could be used in a modified archetype, or alternatively made available as a feat so any class can use it. If firearms are that common, wouldn't this skill be more common?
Some of the problem is that, if firearms are that common and have been around, you would think that the methods for defending against them would also be more prevalent. I think choosing to make a campaign where guns are commonplace should come with some other changes, not just "hey, these guns are everywhere". A product reflecting world design where guns are everywhere seems like a good one but, until then, maybe we have to consider such issues in our own campaign designs. Maybe the price reduction to firearms that comes with more common firearms should be matched by a reduction in the price of Amulets of Bullet Protection. Maybe such protection might also be added to armor or shields, or take other forms. That seems like an easy way to ward off some of those bullets.
Ultimately, the guy with the gun needs to inflict enough damage on that fighter to take him out - before the fighter responds in kind, whether with his own firearm, or with other weaponry.
If they're outside that first increment, regular AC applies. If they're inside that first range increment, they're pretty easy to close in with for melee combat - at which point reloading or firing that gun provokes an attack of opportunity. Or the fighter can back away instead - now he's outside the gun's range increment, but well within his bow's first increment, and both combatants need to hit normal AC's.
Who's using the guns? Other warriors? Well, the fighter can use one too, if he so chooses. Arcane casters? If they weren't using the gun, presumably they'd be using spells, most of which are also range touch attacks (at better range in many cases) or don't need to roll to hit at all.
Maybe the Fighter should consider defensive items that don't provide armor bonuses, but generate deflection or other bonuses instead. Just as useful against many attacks, and more useful against touch attacks.
Maybe give the Fighter the ability to access the Gun Tank ability to modify his armor to be useful against firearms. It seems that could be used in a modified archetype, or alternatively made available as a feat so any class can use it. If firearms are that common, wouldn't this skill be more common?
Some of the problem is that, if firearms are that common and have been around, you would think that the methods for defending against them would also be more prevalent. I think choosing to make a campaign where guns are commonplace should come with some other changes, not just "hey, these guns are everywhere". A product reflecting world design where guns are everywhere seems like a good one but, until then, maybe we have to consider such issues in our own campaign designs. Maybe the price reduction to firearms that comes with more common firearms should be matched by a reduction in the price of Amulets of Bullet Protection. Maybe such protection might also be added to armor or shields, or take other forms. That seems like an easy way to ward off some of those bullets.
Ultimately, the guy with the gun needs to inflict enough damage on that fighter to take him out - before the fighter responds in kind, whether with his own firearm, or with other weaponry.
gamerprinter
Mapper/Publisher
Yeah, I'm not seeing a problem either. If you're talking about a 12th century fighter taking a time machine to some period where guns are common, then the fighter is facing some issues. I assume your fighters are from the same current period as when firearms are common.
And yes, firearms are ranged touch attacks only within the first range increment, unless your gunslinger is spending grit to increase that range.
The next point, unlike some peoples beliefs on how firearms work, revolvers are generally NOT one-shot kills, so what's the problem? So your fighter gets shot and takes some damage, if he can close in before a second shot, the situation becomes regular D&D, if your fighter has a melee weapon. Now he kills the gunslinger like he slays any other opponent.
I don't see a problem.
On another thread, I've created a Shootist (magus archetype). Think a magus with a revolver, especially suited to a high fantasy old west theme.
And yes, firearms are ranged touch attacks only within the first range increment, unless your gunslinger is spending grit to increase that range.
The next point, unlike some peoples beliefs on how firearms work, revolvers are generally NOT one-shot kills, so what's the problem? So your fighter gets shot and takes some damage, if he can close in before a second shot, the situation becomes regular D&D, if your fighter has a melee weapon. Now he kills the gunslinger like he slays any other opponent.
I don't see a problem.
On another thread, I've created a Shootist (magus archetype). Think a magus with a revolver, especially suited to a high fantasy old west theme.
You could create archetypes for all of the classes. It might be time consuming to do, but it might be the best solution if you want to run this style of campaign. Pg 191 of Ultimate Combat has Armor as DR rules. Someone else pointed out Class defense bonus form Unearthed Arcana as another good way to help with armor class.
Last edited:
gamerprinter
Mapper/Publisher
Well, I'm of the mind that you should create new archetypes for all the classes, anyway - almost for any specific setting, depending on how far from normal settings you go.
Really, if you're using firearms as common weapons, and knowing the ranged touch vs. extended ranges, why even worry about AC at all? I cannot recall any old west movie that featured bullet proof vests or anything related to armor. Almost as if, if you want guns in your game, then throw away the concept of armor class. Consider AC for melee and bow attacks only. I wouldn't even worry about it.
With Guns commonplace, and Simple weapons, I think you can reasonably expect every character will carry a firearm. Why not? So, if the enemy wants to stand back and shoot from 5 range increments, return fire.
OR just cast a Fireball! Note that it will ignite combustibles and melt soft metals, like lead...
Or consider some of those typically useless spells in UC that affect gunpowder. If everyone carries guns, those seem way more useful!
OR just cast a Fireball! Note that it will ignite combustibles and melt soft metals, like lead...
Or consider some of those typically useless spells in UC that affect gunpowder. If everyone carries guns, those seem way more useful!
fistful
There was one Client Eastwood movie (fistful of dollars, I think), where he wears a armor chest piece under his coat, so the guy with the rifle can not kill him before he gets in range of his six-shooters.
But that is nitpicky. I agree with your points.
RK
There was one Client Eastwood movie (fistful of dollars, I think), where he wears a armor chest piece under his coat, so the guy with the rifle can not kill him before he gets in range of his six-shooters.
But that is nitpicky. I agree with your points.
RK
Herobizkit
Adventurer
Yeah, bottom line for me, Fighters have a HUGE advantage in a gun heavy setting.
* Best BAB so they'll hit better with most everything.
* High HP.
* DEX, not STR becomes most important for that Touch AC and ranged attacks.
* Being silent is better; bows, thrown weapons don't make noise.
* Feats a-plenty. You can whip a gun out of a guy's hand... with a whip.
* As stated above, Rangers are fantastic, as would be Barbarians, for many of the same reasons.
* Best BAB so they'll hit better with most everything.
* High HP.
* DEX, not STR becomes most important for that Touch AC and ranged attacks.
* Being silent is better; bows, thrown weapons don't make noise.
* Feats a-plenty. You can whip a gun out of a guy's hand... with a whip.
* As stated above, Rangers are fantastic, as would be Barbarians, for many of the same reasons.
