D&D 5E Feral Senses and Hiding???

[Xeviat]

Hey everyone. This has been discussed a bit elsewhere, but no one can really seem to make a determination. Sage Advice weighed in ... and didn't make anything clearer. Kind of Ironic, considering the ability is about detecting invisible creatures.

For those without the compendium handy, here's the ability:

Feral Senses
At 18th level, you gain preternatural senses that help you fight creatures you can't see. When you attack a creature you can't see, your inability to see it doesn't impose disadvantage on your attack rolls against it.
You are also aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn't hidden from you and you aren't blinded or deafened.

Now, clearly, this is supposed to be some version of "Blindsense". The Rogue has a similar ability:

Blindsense
Starting at 14th level, if you are ablet o hear, you are aware of the location of any hidden or invisible creature within 10 feet of you.

Now, the Rogue's is far more clear as to how it works.

How does Invisibility work?

Invisible

• An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of a magical or a special sense. For the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured. The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves.
• Attack rolls against the creature have disadvantage, and the creature's attack rolls have advantage.

Okay, so Feral Senses clearly negates the "attack rolls against the [invisible] creature have disadvantage" portion. But how does "you are also aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn't hidden from you and you aren't blinded or deafened"?

If a creature is invisible, it is heavily obscured and can hide without cover or other obscurement. Does Feral Senses negate this portion of invisibility, and thus make them unable to hide? Or if an invisible creature is hidden from the Ranger at 45 feet, then moves to within 30 feet, are they still hidden, because the ability specifies "provided that the creature isn't hidden from you"?

Sage Advice tried to answer it HERE and HERE. Jeremy Crawford seems to imply that it takes "effort" to detect an unhidden invisible creature, but the invisible condition just says an invisible creature can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves. The "Unseen Attackers and Targets" section is also unclear whether it takes any effort to locate an invisible but unhidden target.

The "Hiding" section states "an invisible creature can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might be noticed, and it does have to stay quiet".

So, how do you understand this all to work?

 

[billd91]

Yeah, those answers on Sage Advice are kind of non-answers. They certainly aren't clarifying much of anything. Clearly, the short format isn't working for those posts.

My take on it: Invisible creatures may not actually be hidden if they haven't taken an action to hide or their stealth roll hasn't beaten the observer's perception roll. Invisibility allows the invisible creature to make that attempt even if in otherwise plain sight. If they don't take that action or their roll isn't good enough, then I'd say they aren't hidden and the ranger automatically is aware of the creature's location if within 30 feet. If the invisible creature does take the hide action and rolls a better stealth roll than the ranger's perception, then feral senses won't allow the ranger to be aware of where he is.

 

[Bawylie]

It’s clearer if you add the word “otherwise” before hidden.

“You are also aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn't [otherwise] hidden from you and you aren't blinded or deafened.”

The creature might still be able to hide behind a tree or whatever.

 

[Xeviat]

My take on it: Invisible creatures may not actually be hidden if they haven't taken an action to hide or their stealth roll hasn't beaten the observer's perception roll. Invisibility allows the invisible creature to make that attempt even if in otherwise plain sight. If they don't take that action or their roll isn't good enough, then I'd say they aren't hidden and the ranger automatically is aware of the creature's location if within 30 feet. If the invisible creature does take the hide action and rolls a better stealth roll than the ranger's perception, then feral senses won't allow the ranger to be aware of where he is.

But isn't that what happens with anyone? It says the ranger is automatically aware of the location of invisible creatures ... but if they don't take the Hide action, then they aren't hidden, and everyone is aware of them if they're moving or making sound. So the ranger is aware of unmoving, silent invisible things? As long as they can hear?

It’s clearer if you add the word “otherwise” before hidden.

“You are also aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn't [otherwise] hidden from you and you aren't blinded or deafened.”

The creature might still be able to hide behind a tree or whatever.

That's kind of the way I originally read it all the time, that they can no longer use invisibility to hide from the Ranger. The Rogue's ability is written so much more clearly.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

Why not "echolocation"?

Human echolocation - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[DEFCON 1]

Until you have decided how hiding and stealth works at your table, no amount of discussion on our part will help you.

At my table, the second point of the ability is pretty much pointless. EVERY person identifies the location of an invisible creature that has not taken an action to hide (IE made a Dexterity (Stealth) check.) You can't SEE the invisible person, but you know where they are (from the sounds they make, the dust they kick up, the tracks they leave etc.)

If I had to guess why it is written there, it's because every table rules hiding, stealth, and invisibility differently (up to and including considering "invisible" and "hidden" to be the same thing), and they wanted to specifically narratively call out that Feral Senses allows you to know where all non-hidden invisible creature are within 30 feet. It's an addition to the narrative ideas of hiding that people make their decisions on, rather than a strict "mechanics" point. The "mechanics" point is the first one-- you don't have disadvantage on attacks against an invisible creature.

 

[Hriston]

I think of it as an expansion of the ranger’s ability to stay alert to danger even when engaged in another activity while traveling for an hour or more in the ranger’s favored terrain. It covers situations in which most characters’ passive Perception would be switched off, but is now uncoupled from traveling for at least an hour and being in a favored terrain, with the added limitations of a 30’ range and only applying to invisible creatures.

 

[Hriston]

To clarify the above, it only applies to invisible creatures within 30 feet that ARE trying to hide and for which you would not otherwise have the ability to search.

 

[Hriston]

Yeah, those answers on Sage Advice are kind of non-answers. They certainly aren't clarifying much of anything. Clearly, the short format isn't working for those posts.

My take on it: Invisible creatures may not actually be hidden if they haven't taken an action to hide or their stealth roll hasn't beaten the observer's perception roll. Invisibility allows the invisible creature to make that attempt even if in otherwise plain sight. If they don't take that action or their roll isn't good enough, then I'd say they aren't hidden and the ranger automatically is aware of the creature's location if within 30 feet. If the invisible creature does take the hide action and rolls a better stealth roll than the ranger's perception, then feral senses won't allow the ranger to be aware of where he is.

This is all true. What’s missing is how this is a benefit to the ranger as compared to any other observer. The answer is that while an observer who is occupied with activities while traveling other than keeping watch won’t notice the hiding invisible creature, the ranger will as long as s/he wins the Stealth/Perception contest.

 

[Hriston]

It’s clearer if you add the word “otherwise” before hidden.

“You are also aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn't [otherwise] hidden from you and you aren't blinded or deafened.”

The creature might still be able to hide behind a tree or whatever.

I think this actually changes the meaning, and implies that being invisible makes you hidden, which it doesn’t.