D&D 5E Feral Instinct; Prescient Barbarians Problem

[-=Xar=-]

During our last session a strange phenomena crept up: the party was investigating a cavern complex and most of the party was checking out one side of a T-intersection, poking around in the webs of well-concealed spiders while the barbarian was 20 feet away searching the other corridor. The PC's who were searching through the webs rolled their perception checks and failed to notice the spiders who, gaining surprise leapt into their faces. But no! The barbarian stated that because of his Feral Instinct he preconsciously felt the danger befalling his party, and because he rolled and won initiative with advantage he could jump into the fray and slaughter the spiders before they even had the chance to jump into the necks of his unknowing comrades!

Well, just being a grindy side-encounter it didn't really matter to me if his character was able to pre-emptively smite lurking arachnids from 20' away, but I realized that other situations might come up, lots of other possible scenarios where abilities like this would give rise to unrealistic, or even quite silly and counterproductive results. So where to draw the line?

What if the party is walking through the streets and a well-concealed assassin is training a crossbow on one of the party-members forehead, with the intent to pull the trigger? As the hidden killer rolled ungodly high on his hide check he is unnoticed and gains surprise, but the barbarian acts faster and... can't do nothing! Oh, he might go into a rage and wander around, but when the assassins turn comes up he could simply decide to slink back into the shadows for another chance, never giving away his identity, maybe even repeating the same tactic over and over, draining the barbarian of his daily rages by just waving a pointy thing at them from afar...

What is the range of this ability anyway? What is the party is all streched-out and one of the members is about to open a door and start an encounter by getting surprised by a mimic that poses as the door itself? Can the barbarian act in the surprise round if he was in the same corridor 30' away? 100'? 200'? And line of sight, what if it was only 10', but around a corner? Would he know the nature of the danger? The range, direction? Would he know if it was his own, his parties or someone else's act or intention that triggered it? Could the barbarian act before the mimic even revealed itself, even though none actually knew it was there? Would he know that the random guy just passing in the crowd was actally just a hair away of plunging his concealed knive into the back of one of the party members? Would he know it if the thug was about to strike down a random passer-by? Could he warn others that something was about to happen if he rolled highest on initiative? What if nothing happens just because his reaction to the looming danger and the thug or mimic, still unnoticed, holds back, changing intent that should have triggered the barbarians reaction the first place? Paradoxes.

And again, what's the point of having advantage on initiative in a surprise situation when most of the time this advantage will only result in being unable to react to the surprise itself? Bob the Barbarian and Miffy the Mage are about to be sniped by elven separatists, surprise is declared, initiative is rolled, Bob, elves and then Miffy coming up... Bob feels danger but sees nothing, elves snipe him and the mage: because his initiative advantage Bob was just as useless during the surprise round as Miffy; unable to do anything. If i was the barbarian I would want to forfeit my advantage now delaying is not an option anymore.

Something just feel amiss with these rules, never mind the incompleteness...

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

What if the party is walking through the streets and a well-concealed assassin is training a crossbow on one of the party-members forehead, with the intent to pull the trigger? As the hidden killer rolled ungodly high on his hide check he is unnoticed and gains surprise, but the barbarian acts faster and... can't do nothing! Oh, he might go into a rage and wander around, but when the assassins turn comes up he could simply decide to slink back into the shadows for another chance, never giving away his identity, maybe even repeating the same tactic over and over, draining the barbarian of his daily rages by just waving a pointy thing at them from afar...

Here's the deal:

Someone who cannot be surprised (i.e. Alert feat) is never vulnerable to assassins, and always gets to act on their turn in combat. That's it. They don't detect hidden threats until the threats break cover (i.e. make an attack, or in the case of the Skulker feat, make an attack and hit). If the barbarian doesn't know where the threat is, then on his turn he gets to declare an action, but he will be declaring in ignorance so it should be something generic like "I ready my axe to cleave the skull of the first hostile thing that approaches us." He can't declare an attack against creatures that he can't perceive or locate.

He could, however, throw a javelin at a suspicious-looking location ("down the tunnel") and if he guessed right about where the threat was coming from, he might actually hit an enemy.

 

[Tormyr]

During our last session a strange phenomena crept up: the party was investigating a cavern complex and most of the party was checking out one side of a T-intersection, poking around in the webs of well-concealed spiders while the barbarian was 20 feet away searching the other corridor. The PC's who were searching through the webs rolled their perception checks and failed to notice the spiders who, gaining surprise leapt into their faces. But no! The barbarian stated that because of his Feral Instinct he preconsciously felt the danger befalling his party, and because he rolled and won initiative with advantage he could jump into the fray and slaughter the spiders before they even had the chance to jump into the necks of his unknowing comrades!

Well, just being a grindy side-encounter it didn't really matter to me if his character was able to pre-emptively smite lurking arachnids from 20' away, but I realized that other situations might come up, lots of other possible scenarios where abilities like this would give rise to unrealistic, or even quite silly and counterproductive results. So where to draw the line?

What if the party is walking through the streets and a well-concealed assassin is training a crossbow on one of the party-members forehead, with the intent to pull the trigger? As the hidden killer rolled ungodly high on his hide check he is unnoticed and gains surprise, but the barbarian acts faster and... can't do nothing! Oh, he might go into a rage and wander around, but when the assassins turn comes up he could simply decide to slink back into the shadows for another chance, never giving away his identity, maybe even repeating the same tactic over and over, draining the barbarian of his daily rages by just waving a pointy thing at them from afar...

What is the range of this ability anyway? What is the party is all streched-out and one of the members is about to open a door and start an encounter by getting surprised by a mimic that poses as the door itself? Can the barbarian act in the surprise round if he was in the same corridor 30' away? 100'? 200'? And line of sight, what if it was only 10', but around a corner? Would he know the nature of the danger? The range, direction? Would he know if it was his own, his parties or someone else's act or intention that triggered it? Could the barbarian act before the mimic even revealed itself, even though none actually knew it was there? Would he know that the random guy just passing in the crowd was actally just a hair away of plunging his concealed knive into the back of one of the party members? Would he know it if the thug was about to strike down a random passer-by? Could he warn others that something was about to happen if he rolled highest on initiative? What if nothing happens just because his reaction to the looming danger and the thug or mimic, still unnoticed, holds back, changing intent that should have triggered the barbarians reaction the first place? Paradoxes.

And again, what's the point of having advantage on initiative in a surprise situation when most of the time this advantage will only result in being unable to react to the surprise itself? Bob the Barbarian and Miffy the Mage are about to be sniped by elven separatists, surprise is declared, initiative is rolled, Bob, elves and then Miffy coming up... Bob feels danger but sees nothing, elves snipe him and the mage: because his initiative advantage Bob was just as useless during the surprise round as Miffy; unable to do anything. If i was the barbarian I would want to forfeit my advantage now delaying is not an option anymore.

Something just feel amiss with these rules, never mind the incompleteness...

Surprise and the barbarian's feature do not have to always work like that. The barbarian can roll high on initiative and act normally, but if it already failed its perception check, it continues whatever it is doing.

Next time, roll initiative before the thing reveals itself and let the barbarian act normally. The barbarian's Feral Instinct may keep it from being surprised, but it still has to know what it is reacting to. Rolling advantage on initiative also helps keep the assassin's feature from working on the barbarian. It would allow the barbarian to take the Dodge action against the separatists.

 

[Minigiant]

It's simple.

If a barbarian of the 7th level or greater is surprised, he can enter rage, act on the surprise round, and roll initiative (with advantage).
That's it.

The assassin readies his weapon. Intuitive is rolled. On the barbarian's turn if surprised, his player states if he or she acts and the barbarian enters a rage if the player chooses.

 

[-=Xar=-]

Well yes, the rules are pretty clear on what happens once surprise is declared.When the barbarian is the only party involved things are easily taken care of. But ambiguity arises once there are other party members or NPC's involved as the surprise condition is a shared state on the first round of combat.

There is a vagueness about the extent of this power. Like is it limited to a certain range? It would be obvious that the barbarians power would activate if his party would get ambushed 20' away by spiders, as it happened in our last session. But what about the party's scout being attacked while he is 100-200' away? Just a short sprint for the mobile barbarian, certainly he could start running before the rest of the party realizes what's happening. But what about 800' then, the mage about to be shot by elven snipers, feeling their intention possibly even before they notched an arrow and had the chance to take a shot?

What's the influence of line of sight or obstacles, between him, his party and/or the attackers? Does that make a difference? What if the party is close by but around a bend? I think the barbarian might feel that danger, being part of the upcoming encounter. But what if the barbarian is unaware about the fact that his party member is nearby, like the invisible scout sneaking along? Could he feel the looming danger from an unknown source to its just as unknown target? According the rules, yes, as he will probably take part of the ensuing encounter. And things get wacky if the PC about to ambushed is in a wholly different room, maybe even several rooms or corridors away...

But perception checks don't seem to matter anyway, barbarians have godlike awareness as even impossible difficult checks succeed automatically; barbarians can feel the intentions of undetectable enemies lurking on the astral and ethereal plane about to attack, often even before these have manifested themselves. So range doesn't seem to matter, nor line of sight, the barbarian knows.

Things get truly ugly if this power would extend to NPC's. Could the barbarian feel it coming if the NPC he is talking to on the street is about to get stabbed by a thug with a hidden blade? Or should I say 'sorry, you weren't meant to be part of this encounter'? Who makes that decision anyway? What if it would happen to a random passer-by, or someone 100' away? Why would it work in the case of another party member but not in case of an NPC?

Or is it only meant for fights and people the barbarian cares about? Is that an implicit or explicit decision? In other words: is it a static decision made by the DM (no, you don't care enough about your neighbor to feel something brewing) or an active decision on part of the barbarian? And how can the barbarian make such a decision anyway, knowing nothing about the source of the danger nor the intended target? What if the barbarian isn't even aware yet of the presence of Uncle Ben who is about to be attacked, like in the example with the party's scout? Or maybe it is someone he has never seen before, about to be stabbed by an assassin in a house nearby (but one he might want to save nonetheless just to feel heroic)?

Question, questions. So it seems that while the rules aim for simplicity and are clearly defined for a part, they are also so ambiguous, subjective and inherently overpowered that it forces me, the DM, to constantly make arbitrary and often contradictory rulings in lieu of the player, leading to endless discussions. And while it might seem a nitpick to some, a fast-moving barbarian easily dishing out 60-70 damage per round can really make an impact on the unfolding of encounters.

 

[Athinar]

I see it as this, if the Barbarian is in no danger then the "Feral Instinct" do not kick in, if the barbarian hears or sees the Party then the "Feral Instinct" kicks in and rolls advantage initiative and if the barbarian wins initiative the Barbarian can rage (if there are any rages left)
If the barbarian can not see nor hear the party then no "Feral Instinct"
Barbarian is around a corner, the barbarian can hear
Barbarian is a different location from the party and the party is in danger and the barbarian is not in danger, no "Feral Instinct"

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Well yes, the rules are pretty clear on what happens once surprise is declared.When the barbarian is the only party involved things are easily taken care of. But ambiguity arises once there are other party members or NPC's involved as the surprise condition is a shared state on the first round of combat.

No, in 5E surprise is individual. PHB 189.

 

[-=Xar=-]

No, in 5E surprise is individual. PHB 189.

Ah, pardon my poor wording. Yes, it is determined individually, then initiative is rolled: some might act in the surprise round, others who failed their insight checks may not, the barbarian doesn't need a check at all. That is entirely clear, but it doesn't really have a bear on the question: what is the reach and range of the barbarians awareness? While this is readily answerable for other classes ("you are aware of things you could have sensed by your normal senses, as determined by your active or passive insight check") the barbarian simply seems to know.

This is regardless of range, difficulty, possibly even line of sight or relatedness. Is he studying a map with his back turned while an invisible, hiding and heavily concealed elf is taking aim 800' away? He knows and could possibly even act before the arrow is released. Stranger still, if the elf would want to take a shot at one of his friends, he would still know something is amiss. Heck, he would probably know if his horse was targeted, while the animal and the rest of the party can be surprised in the first round, he never is What if his friend, a rogue, rolled an 18 for his hide check, still being spotted by the elf sniper but being hidden from the barbarian? The elf would grab his weapon, initiative would be rolled, surprise would be determined, first round would start, with the barbarian knowing and being able to act, all while being ignorant of both the attacker and target, possibly even before the elf had drawn his bow.

So why wouldn't it work on NPC's then? What level of relatedness or personal danger is required? Does talking to a stranger on the street, as in a previous example build enough affinity to give the barbarian a chance to stop an assassination attempt? What if it was 100' away? Could he have a chance of interrupting a fight between two groups of NPC's, feeling their intentions? What if it happens out of sight? Even if the insight check would be so difficult that other players wouldn't have a chance of noticing, the barbarian doesn't need a check and would know something is off.

So if there is no check involved, what constitutes 'too far' or 'too difficult to detect' or 'not enough related'? When does he get a chance to fly into a rage and wander around filled with paranoia while the rest of the party is oblivious of anything, and when are things too far, too subtle or too unimportant to deny even the barbarian from taking action, effectively blocking him and maybe the party from unfolding events?

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Ah, pardon my poor wording. Yes, it is determined individually, then initiative is rolled: some might act in the surprise round, others who failed their insight checks may not, the barbarian doesn't need a check at all. That is entirely clear, but it doesn't really have a bear on the question: what is the reach and range of the barbarians awareness? While this is readily answerable for other classes ("you are aware of things you could have sensed by your normal senses, as determined by your active or passive insight check") the barbarian simply seems to know.

That's just it--nothing at all happens to the barbarian's awareness.

DM: Okay, Rick the Ranger, you spotted the elven sniper and hit him with your arrow. Bob the Barbarian, it's now your turn. You're surprised.
Bob: Do I see what Rick is shooting at?
DM: No.
Bob: Oh, too bad. I guess I won't Rage then. Pass.

If Bob wants to rage so he can Dodge on that turn, he can, but his rage will end immediately because he didn't attack anything. This is all so straightforward to me that I'm having trouble seeing what difficulty you're having with the situation. What difference does it make whether NPCs are around or what his relationship is to them? He could be a mile away from the action and the same situation would apply: if he chooses to Rage he can act normally (but won't have any reason to do so nor anything to do with himself if he does, so he never will).

I guess my question for you is, what are you doing for characters who are not Alert and not barbarians? Are you telling them that they can't act because they're "not involved in the combat"?

 

[pming]

Hiya!

My answer is simple: Do what you feel makes sense. Or, to put it another way, if there are no rules that fit this situation, then there are no rules that fit this situation. Are there rules for hard boiling eggs in a pot on a campfire? No? Oh, well I guess you'll just have to infer how to do so using the closest rules there are, or just make it up.

You yourself even said "...this would give rise to unrealistic, or even quite silly and counterproductive results". So, make a ruling that isn't unrealistic, silly or counterproductive to your campaign.

If something in the game is going to make your game worse, for any reason, be it game play, player or DM enjoyment, rules shinannigans, etc., then you, the DM need to do something to rectify that situation. In the case you present above, it should be obvious that allowing such an interpretation is likely to harm your game immediately as well as for the future. So don't let it.

You are the boss of the rules...not the other way around.

^_^

Paul L. Ming