Feeblemind - Too Powerful or just a balance?

[TwilightWhisper]

Last weekend we ran a session where one of the players had cast Feeblemind on an enemy and aftr failing the save, became a vegetable. Does anyone elso think that Feeblemind is too powerful a spell to give low-level characters?

 

[Caliban]

Last weekend we ran a session where one of the players had cast Feeblemind on an enemy and aftr failing the save, became a vegetable. Does anyone elso think that Feeblemind is too powerful a spell to give low-level characters?

7th level is "low level"?

 

[Liquidsabre]

Mid-level really. DMG p.134: (2nd-5th) low levels, (6th-11th) mid levels, (12th-15th) high levels, (16th-20th) very high levels.

Feeblemind is a 5th level spell, so that would be 9th level caster anyhow. No this spell doesn't seem too powerful for it's level, it's a all or nothing spell with Will negating. Though I'm guessing the villain in question wasn't a high-will save type.

 

[Herpes Cineplex]

What freaks me out about Feeblemind can be reduced down to one big thing and two small things.

The big thing is what it takes to undo the spell; there is nothing that can be done for a Feebleminded character beyond Heal, Limited Wish, Wish, or Miracle. All of which, I will note, are higher-level spells than Feeblemind itself. For only a fifth level spell, that's almost unbelievably harsh; in many campaigns, it could remove a character more effectively than simply killing them. Hell, if I had a choice between being hit with Feeblemind or dying, I'd take death: at least the cleric only has to be able to cast fifth-level spells (Raise Dead) to fix being dead.

The small things that worry me are the penalty to the Will save for arcane casters, which is really just adding insult to injury, and the absence of a duration for the spell. If it lasted a week or a day or even an hour per caster level, it would still be a kick-ass spell...but no, it lasts until the victim dies or someone manages to find a cleric who is willing and able to cast Heal. That's just evil.


My wizard character in our current game has the spell and uses it, of course. I feel bad about it, but it's just too devastating a spell to not use. But if I were running the game, I'd be house-ruling Feeblemind in some way, either giving it a limited duration or saying that it can be removed by something less potent than Heal. And if I couldn't pick a suitable 5th-level spell, I'd just invent one to specifically cure Feeblemind and stick it on the cleric's list. Because good lord, I don't think it should be easier to bring someone back to life than it is to undo a lobotomy enchantment.

I think Feeblemind would still be a useful spell even with that kind of modification, and it'd be less likely to completely nuke a character right out of the game.

--
right now, it tends to encourage mutually-assured destruction showdowns
ryan

 

[Bauglir]

Break Enchantment might deal with it, depending on your interpretation.

 

[Al'Kelhar]

Feeblemind is an all-or-nothing, or a "one-hit-to-kill" spell. If it works, your opponent's combat abilities are so compromised they may as well be taken out of the combat. There are plenty of other "one-hit-to-kill" spells at lower levels than 5th. Hold person (pre-3.5 nerf) is a good example, but many of the enchantments also fall into this category. So feeblemind is not unbalanced for its level - and here's the caveat - when used by a PC against an NPC. "One-hit-to-kill" spells are bad when used against PCs, but they usually only take you out of the combat, not the game, because generally your side wins the fight and the effect wears off or can be easily dispelled. On the other hand, because of the limited ways in which feeblemind can be removed, it in effect kills the character.

Note that arcane spellcasters can really be treated as "low save" classes for the purposes of feeblemind, because although Will is their best save, they don't generally have the ability score in Wis to make the most of it, and suffer a -4 penalty to their saves against the spell. Feeblemind is a mage-killer, and is used as such by - and against - my own wizard PC. What's food for the goose is food for the gander, of course.

On balance, I reckon feeblemind should be raised to 6th level, so at least characters who are likely to find themselves on the receiving end of one are also likely to have a clerical comrade around with access to heal to fix it after the battle (or at least the following day).

Cheers, Al'Kelhar

 

[Darklone]

The thing I don't like about Feeblemind, as mentioned: It's a mage killer. As if clerics wouldn't be strong enough with their good will saves.

 

[Thanee]

Well, Feeblemind isn't always effective. A fighter, for example, would still be able to defend his allies. Granted, not in the most creative manner, but simple move and attack would surely be possible still.

Against a wizard (or any spellcaster, arcane especially) it's nasty, but then again, any fortitude based "save or die" spell is about the same.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Darklone]

Yeah, and clerics laugh about it.

 

[Stalker0]

I so prefer these kinds of spells to save or die ones. Instead of..."oops you died... go make a new character" you get to roleplay being a 1 int virtual animal. In my mind its much more interesting to screw a player for a time then to take him completely out of the game.

Now I do agree it might be nice to have a way of breaking it at 9th level.