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<blockquote data-quote="JEB" data-source="post: 9287871" data-attributes="member: 10148"><p>Time to analyze the new core monsters in the 4e Monster Manual!</p><p></p><p>Core in every edition since the 4e MM: Cyclops, death knight, bandit, guard. Bandits, of course, go back to D&D's beginning; only 3e had left them out of the core as a monster.</p><p></p><p>Core only in the 4e MM and 5e:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Banshee: Known as the "wailing ghost" in 4e. They'd been a staple in 1e and 2e, but 3e for some reason made them non-core.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Fomorian, galeb duhr: Non-core in 1e, but much like the banshee, they were staples in 2e yet downgraded to non-core in 3e. Fomorians in particular were given a prominent role in 4e as Feywild villains.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Dracolich: First appearing as a core monster in the 2e Monstrous Manual, it's surprising it took another edition for them to become core again. They'd almost have been in the "core since 4e MM" category, had not all the Monster Vault dracoliches been non-standard variants...</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Grell, hook horror: These 1e Fiend Folio vets had crawled their way up to the core in the 2e Monstrous Manual, but were sidelined in 3e.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Cambion, barlgura, goristro, spined devil, mezzoloth (mezzodemon): These fiends had been part of 1e onward, but this was their first appearance as core creatures.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Flameskull, helmed horror: Lesser-known Forgotten Realms monsters in 2e and 3e, this was quite an upgrade for them. (I suspect their appearances in the 2e MC Annual might have helped them out.) I rather like the 4e helmed horror's elemental weapons, and wish 5e had kept them.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Bone naga: Much the same trajectory as the last, but with some competition mixed in; they moved on to 5e, but the dark naga (around since 2e) did not.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Vine blight: First introduced in 3e's Fiend Folio, these were probably the newest monsters of this bloc (excluding variants like the grick alpha). 5e lumped them in with blights (as the "vine blight").</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Cave bear, giant rat: Some of the few (semi-)normal animals to appear in the 4e MM, likely helped by their core status in 1e and 2e. Giant rats actually co-existed here with the dire rats that replaced them in 3e.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Berserker: Like bandits, these had been there from D&D's beginning, and only 3e had sidelined them.</li> </ul><p>Non-core in 5e:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Volo's Guide to Monsters brought back the dark ones (as darklings), the quickling, and the yuan-ti anathema. Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, on the other hand, was much more generous to 4e's core, reviving the balhannoth, berbalang, boneclaw, (rogue) eidolon, foulspawn and larva mage (as the "star spawn"), iron cobra, kruthik, phoenix, shadar-kai, skull lord, deathlock wight, and sword wraith. Plus Orcus, of course (though that was a reprint from Out of the Abyss). Seems MTOF was trying to do for 4e monsters what Volo's had done for the TSR-era horde.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Chains of Asmodeus brought back the war devil, originally from 3e's MM II.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Glory of the Giants brought back the death giant, originally from 3e's MM III.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Eberron: Rising from the Last War revived the warforged and iron defender (which had originated in 3e Eberron, of course).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Phantom warriors returned in Curse of Strahd.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The atropal had originated in the 3e Epic Level Handbook (later becoming OGL), and returned in Tomb of Annihilation.</li> </ul><p>Not in 5e:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Many monster variants: The 4e MM usually provided at least two variants of every monster (and often more), to fit different combat roles or environments. However, a large number of these didn't even make it into the Monster Vault, let alone 5e - too many to realistically list here. There were some standouts that had actually first appeared in 3e, however: the spiretop drake, the trap haunt, the spectral panther, the flame snake (not to be confused with the fire snake), the war troll, the slaughter wight, the guulvorg (worg), and the gravehound. (Not to mention the aforementioned 4e monsters that had made preview appearances in the D&D Miniatures Game.)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Fire bat: Seemingly just another random variant, but it had actually been in non-core monster books from 1e through 3e. (Apparently 5e hasn't found a place for it, though.)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Wild hunt hound: Despite their long history in the game, their previous appearances had been pretty minor, as a component of the legendary Wild Hunt in 1e, 2e, and 3e. It was likely their appearance in 3e's MM V that gave them a spot here. (These would be great as Feywild foes.)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Dragonspawn: Introduced in 3e's MM IV, they were considered worthy of a core upgrade in 4e. They could have easily fit into Fizban's, but perhaps they would have competed with the draconians?</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Banshrae: These evil fey - first appearing in 3e's MM V - felt as if they'd been positioned for more than they eventually got.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Magma hurler: Why these were expanded from a single creature in 3e's Miniatures Handbook, to a whole category of "magma beasts" in 4e, not sure. Guess someone liked them!</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Rot harbinger: Known as the "angel of decay" in 3e's Libris Mortis, presumably renamed to avoid confusion with 4e's actual angels (which had similar naming conventions). There seems to be potential in their lore, but apparently it wasn't enough to carry them onward.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Immolith: I've <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/quaint-and-curious-monsters-of-forgotten-core.686031/post-8547740" target="_blank">called these out previously</a> as one of the better riffs on 4e's new demon lore, leaning into that corrupt-elemental vibe. This is certainly one that's deserving of a comeback, IMHO.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Primordial naga: This is another 4e idea that just struck me as cool, and would be great as an epic 5e foe.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Epic tier foes: The 4e MM tried to clear more of a space in the core for epic-level monsters, with its whole section of "abominations" that included the astral stalker, blood fiend, and phane. Funny enough, though, only the phane (and the aforementioned atropal) had actually been categorized as epic foes in 3e, appearing in the ELH; the rest came from other 3e sources.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Elementals: The 4e MM tried to replace the standard, classical elementals with a set of more complex successors, such as the "rockfire dreadnought". However, by the time of the Monster Vault, the classics were the default again.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Titans: 4e also replaced the classic titans with these elementally charged super-giants. I'd absolutely expected them to make a comeback in Glory of the Giants, but the closest we got were the "scions of giants' gods".</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Lamia: As noted before, the 4e lamia was radically different from the version in other editions. But I feel like they could make a comeback in 5e under another name (as the 4e archons kinda did, disguised as the "elemental myrmidons").</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Sorrowsworn: This monster has had three different incarnations in three different editions. Guess they like the name more than the result?</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Swordwing: One of the few truly new 4e monsters. They have a "quirky homebrew monster from my home campaign" feel IMHO, which gives me an odd affection for them.</li> </ul></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="JEB, post: 9287871, member: 10148"] Time to analyze the new core monsters in the 4e Monster Manual! Core in every edition since the 4e MM: Cyclops, death knight, bandit, guard. Bandits, of course, go back to D&D's beginning; only 3e had left them out of the core as a monster. Core only in the 4e MM and 5e: [LIST] [*]Banshee: Known as the "wailing ghost" in 4e. They'd been a staple in 1e and 2e, but 3e for some reason made them non-core. [*]Fomorian, galeb duhr: Non-core in 1e, but much like the banshee, they were staples in 2e yet downgraded to non-core in 3e. Fomorians in particular were given a prominent role in 4e as Feywild villains. [*]Dracolich: First appearing as a core monster in the 2e Monstrous Manual, it's surprising it took another edition for them to become core again. They'd almost have been in the "core since 4e MM" category, had not all the Monster Vault dracoliches been non-standard variants... [*]Grell, hook horror: These 1e Fiend Folio vets had crawled their way up to the core in the 2e Monstrous Manual, but were sidelined in 3e. [*]Cambion, barlgura, goristro, spined devil, mezzoloth (mezzodemon): These fiends had been part of 1e onward, but this was their first appearance as core creatures. [*]Flameskull, helmed horror: Lesser-known Forgotten Realms monsters in 2e and 3e, this was quite an upgrade for them. (I suspect their appearances in the 2e MC Annual might have helped them out.) I rather like the 4e helmed horror's elemental weapons, and wish 5e had kept them. [*]Bone naga: Much the same trajectory as the last, but with some competition mixed in; they moved on to 5e, but the dark naga (around since 2e) did not. [*]Vine blight: First introduced in 3e's Fiend Folio, these were probably the newest monsters of this bloc (excluding variants like the grick alpha). 5e lumped them in with blights (as the "vine blight"). [*]Cave bear, giant rat: Some of the few (semi-)normal animals to appear in the 4e MM, likely helped by their core status in 1e and 2e. Giant rats actually co-existed here with the dire rats that replaced them in 3e. [*]Berserker: Like bandits, these had been there from D&D's beginning, and only 3e had sidelined them. [/LIST] Non-core in 5e: [LIST] [*]Volo's Guide to Monsters brought back the dark ones (as darklings), the quickling, and the yuan-ti anathema. Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, on the other hand, was much more generous to 4e's core, reviving the balhannoth, berbalang, boneclaw, (rogue) eidolon, foulspawn and larva mage (as the "star spawn"), iron cobra, kruthik, phoenix, shadar-kai, skull lord, deathlock wight, and sword wraith. Plus Orcus, of course (though that was a reprint from Out of the Abyss). Seems MTOF was trying to do for 4e monsters what Volo's had done for the TSR-era horde. [*]Chains of Asmodeus brought back the war devil, originally from 3e's MM II. [*]Glory of the Giants brought back the death giant, originally from 3e's MM III. [*]Eberron: Rising from the Last War revived the warforged and iron defender (which had originated in 3e Eberron, of course). [*]Phantom warriors returned in Curse of Strahd. [*]The atropal had originated in the 3e Epic Level Handbook (later becoming OGL), and returned in Tomb of Annihilation. [/LIST] Not in 5e: [LIST] [*]Many monster variants: The 4e MM usually provided at least two variants of every monster (and often more), to fit different combat roles or environments. However, a large number of these didn't even make it into the Monster Vault, let alone 5e - too many to realistically list here. There were some standouts that had actually first appeared in 3e, however: the spiretop drake, the trap haunt, the spectral panther, the flame snake (not to be confused with the fire snake), the war troll, the slaughter wight, the guulvorg (worg), and the gravehound. (Not to mention the aforementioned 4e monsters that had made preview appearances in the D&D Miniatures Game.) [*]Fire bat: Seemingly just another random variant, but it had actually been in non-core monster books from 1e through 3e. (Apparently 5e hasn't found a place for it, though.) [*]Wild hunt hound: Despite their long history in the game, their previous appearances had been pretty minor, as a component of the legendary Wild Hunt in 1e, 2e, and 3e. It was likely their appearance in 3e's MM V that gave them a spot here. (These would be great as Feywild foes.) [*]Dragonspawn: Introduced in 3e's MM IV, they were considered worthy of a core upgrade in 4e. They could have easily fit into Fizban's, but perhaps they would have competed with the draconians? [*]Banshrae: These evil fey - first appearing in 3e's MM V - felt as if they'd been positioned for more than they eventually got. [*]Magma hurler: Why these were expanded from a single creature in 3e's Miniatures Handbook, to a whole category of "magma beasts" in 4e, not sure. Guess someone liked them! [*]Rot harbinger: Known as the "angel of decay" in 3e's Libris Mortis, presumably renamed to avoid confusion with 4e's actual angels (which had similar naming conventions). There seems to be potential in their lore, but apparently it wasn't enough to carry them onward. [*]Immolith: I've [URL='https://www.enworld.org/threads/quaint-and-curious-monsters-of-forgotten-core.686031/post-8547740']called these out previously[/URL] as one of the better riffs on 4e's new demon lore, leaning into that corrupt-elemental vibe. This is certainly one that's deserving of a comeback, IMHO. [*]Primordial naga: This is another 4e idea that just struck me as cool, and would be great as an epic 5e foe. [*]Epic tier foes: The 4e MM tried to clear more of a space in the core for epic-level monsters, with its whole section of "abominations" that included the astral stalker, blood fiend, and phane. Funny enough, though, only the phane (and the aforementioned atropal) had actually been categorized as epic foes in 3e, appearing in the ELH; the rest came from other 3e sources. [*]Elementals: The 4e MM tried to replace the standard, classical elementals with a set of more complex successors, such as the "rockfire dreadnought". However, by the time of the Monster Vault, the classics were the default again. [*]Titans: 4e also replaced the classic titans with these elementally charged super-giants. I'd absolutely expected them to make a comeback in Glory of the Giants, but the closest we got were the "scions of giants' gods". [*]Lamia: As noted before, the 4e lamia was radically different from the version in other editions. But I feel like they could make a comeback in 5e under another name (as the 4e archons kinda did, disguised as the "elemental myrmidons"). [*]Sorrowsworn: This monster has had three different incarnations in three different editions. Guess they like the name more than the result? [*]Swordwing: One of the few truly new 4e monsters. They have a "quirky homebrew monster from my home campaign" feel IMHO, which gives me an odd affection for them. [/LIST] [/QUOTE]
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