Evangelist variant from Dragon #311

[Mark Hope]

Apologies if this is old hat, but I couldn't find anything in the most recent pages...

A player in my game wants to use the evangelist cleric variant from Dragon #311. It seems a little overpowered to me and I'd like to get some opinions on the matter. Compared to the standard cleric, the evangelist has better skills list, slightly worse armour and loses turn undead and spontaneous heal. The evangelist spontaneously casts all spells like a sorcerer and has a spells per day and spells known like a sorcerer. The evangelist also gets extra domains and domain powers every 5 levels, ending up with 6 domains, the spells of which are added to his spells known.

Especially compared to either the sorcerer or the spontaneous divine caster from Unearthed Arcana, the evangelist seems a little overpowered in the area of spells known. What is the general consensus on this? If he is so inclined, I'd also love to hear the thoughts of the author of the class, Ari Marmell ...

 

[Joshua Randall]

A toned down version of the Evangelist exists as the Favored Soul (in Complete Divine). A search should yield numerous threads on that class.

 

[Mark Hope]

Thanks, Joshua - I'm familiar with the Favoured Soul (which is good, seeing as I don't have access to the search facility). It's an interesting alternative but also has those level-based abilities (energy resistance, wings, DR etc) and fills a particular niche in my campaign. The player in question is interested in having domains, which the Favoured Soul does not possess. I'm really looking for some input or analysis of the Evangelist class and how it balances against the core cleric or the spontaneous casting cleric from Unearthed Arcana .

 

[Joshua Randall]

As a proud Community Supporter with the search function, here are some threads on the Favored Soul:

www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=126446
www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=123554
www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=109098
www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=100306
www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=76365

 

[Mark Hope]

Hey, cheers! Some good insight there - many thanks. I bow before your greater functionality .

 

[Mouseferatu]

Especially compared to either the sorcerer or the spontaneous divine caster from Unearthed Arcana, the evangelist seems a little overpowered in the area of spells known. What is the general consensus on this? If he is so inclined, I'd also love to hear the thoughts of the author of the class, Ari Marmell ...

Well, here's the thing...

I'm not as qualified to give my opinion of the class as you might think. While I wrote the article it--as all articles--went through some heavy editing. And the truth is, the evangelist class changed the most, from design to final version, out of all the classes I wrote.

As I originally wrote it, the evangelist got so many domains because those were the only spells he had access to; he didn't get to choose any from the actual cleric list. The idea was, essentially, that the evangelist was a domain-only caster, and thus needed more domains to A) grand him enough spells to be worthwhile, and B) so his domain abilities would help make up for the loss of power and flexibility.

(You can probably expect to see a new variant of this original concept in one of my upcoming books or PDFs, as and when the opportunity arises.)

As written now, I think the evangelist is probably a little much, but not so over-powered that it'll throw off your campaign at all.

 

[Mark Hope]

Thanks for your input there, Ari (been away on holiday over the weekend - only just saw it). A domain-only caster is a very neat idea; a divine caster of that sort hearkens back to the spheres of 2e to one degree or another. I'm still musing over the evangelist (and am using the UA spontaneous divine caster in the meantime) but I look forward to seeing something more along those same lines from you whenever the opportunity allows...

 

[Joshua Randall]

Just a quick note -- do not underestimate the power of Turn Undead. The core cleric is balanced with that ability in mind. Further, the addition of Divine XXX feats (Divine Might, Divine Vigor) makes Turn Undead an even better class ability.

I am about to start a new campaign for new players, and I have strongly considered replacing the cleric class with either the Evangelist or the Favored Soul. What's holding me back right now is (1) Turn Undead [because I like using undead as enemies] and (2) Domains [because they are such a great part of D&D 3.x, it would be a shame for the players to miss out on them].

 

[Mouseferatu]

Thanks for your input there, Ari (been away on holiday over the weekend - only just saw it). A domain-only caster is a very neat idea; a divine caster of that sort hearkens back to the spheres of 2e to one degree or another. I'm still musing over the evangelist (and am using the UA spontaneous divine caster in the meantime) but I look forward to seeing something more along those same lines from you whenever the opportunity allows...

Okay, please forgive me for taking a moment to hijack the thread and pimp another product of mine; I failed my Will save.

If you're looking for something that herkens back to the 2nd edition spheres, I can do you one better than a domain-only caster. Lions Den Press recently published The Priest of the Celestial Spheres. It was designed from the ground up to be a 3.5-equivalent to the old sphere system, but with a few domain-like elements worked in as well.

I think you may like it.

 

[Mark Hope]

Just a quick note -- do not underestimate the power of Turn Undead. The core cleric is balanced with that ability in mind. Further, the addition of Divine XXX feats (Divine Might, Divine Vigor) makes Turn Undead an even better class ability.

Well, that's the real question with the published version of the Evangelist class: assuming you balance the better skill selection against the poorer armour, does Turn Undead equal four domains? I tend to think that it's slightly out of balance in the evangelist's favour (but not so much so that I find it an easy call to make - hence the reason for this thread in the first place, heh heh). It might be worth seeing the class in play for a few levels to see how it all balances out...

If you're looking for something that herkens back to the 2nd edition spheres, I can do you one better than a domain-only caster. Lions Den Press recently published The Priest of the Celestial Spheres. It was designed from the ground up to be a 3.5-equivalent to the old sphere system, but with a few domain-like elements worked in as well.

Oooh, hmmm... Interesting. I was a really big fan of the 2e spheres system, warts and all, and bemoaned its removal at length. This may well be worth checking out - pimpery much appreciated