Entangle: too powerful?

[Pickaxe]

I have an ongoing disagreement with a friend about Entangle. He is the DM in a couple of campaigns where I have played druids. These campaigns, I should point out, have not gotten beyond 6th level, so first level spells are still pretty significant in general. In both campaigns, my druids have made full use of the Entangle spell whenever we had an encounter in the outdoors (generally the woods): cast Entangle, plunk away with ranged attacks until all enemies are dead or have escaped.

The DM is very frustrated with this spell and thinks it's too powerful. Our last two encounters, for instance, involved 1) eight goblins (2 with character levels) and two worgs and 2) seven krenshars (one large, six medium). The party (three third level characters and two first level) quickly dispatched the first encounter, and the second was more challenging but still no problem. Also, for the second encounter, the DM had changed the area of the spell to a 30' radius and allowed a full move (rather than half) after a successful Strength or Escape Artist check.

The DM's basic problem with the spell is that the area is so large that, once entangled, you are essentially stuck for the duration of the spell, because the DC to break is so high, and, perhaps more importantly, the area is so large that, even if you break free, you will likely not be able to leave the area before having to make another save.

Is Entangle too powerful for a first level spell? Do other DMs feel that it should be nerfed? Are there ant-entangle tactics that creatures can employ that might make the DM more amenable to the spell as written? Is the fact that it's usable only outdoors enough of a constraint to make it sufficiently less powerful than, say, Web?

I'm perfectly willing to nerf it if it's too powerful, but in the campaign we are playing now we are trying to stick to 3.5 RAW as much as possible.

--Axe

 

[sdt]

Well, in a town, dungeon, or desert it's not going to be very usefull.

 

[KarinsDad]

I don't think so.

Druids are kind of wimpy as is at lower levels.

Entangle only really works outdoors (and as a DM, I would give a +4 bonus to the save if there is only low grass, not bushes and trees to use). Plus, even if you fail your save in low grass, the DM can rule that the NPCs legs are entangled, but not their upper bodies. Hence, he could rule that they could fire back with their missile weapons depending on terrain and how they are entangled.


If you make your Reflex save, Entangle merely gives 1/2 movement. No additional saves required. Granted, maybe only one NPC in three or four will make the save, but this IS a specialized spell.

If you fail your Reflex save, then yes, you are in trouble. But, this is why DMs should have spell casting opponents as well. A hiding Goblin Shaman casting Dispel Magic might turn the tide.

Or even a Goblin Archer readying an action to fire an arrow at any spell casters could nix this spell.


Just tell your DM to be just a little more creative.

 

[Tonguez]

Flight is the obvious entangle beater - your DM needs to use a few more creatures with flight (pixies, griffons etc) also anything insubstantial will not be affected

and as sdt says use terrain (although you can still find plants in a town) but to dungeon and desert add farm (grass) since short grass isn't much good at entangling anything

Entangle is good but Druids spells are about Terrain management and nerfing entangle is a bit much imho (or maybe move it up a level if it really does cause pain)

 

[shoof]

My DM also hated this spell, so he used it against us, we had entangle wars in the jungle, made for interesting encounters. There are a few Druid spells that can counter entangle, your dm just has to look.

 

[Pickaxe]

I don't think so.

Druids are kind of wimpy as is at lower levels.

Perhaps, but I think the DM sees it as something that makes the party too powerful, rather than the druid itself.

Entangle only really works outdoors (and as a DM, I would give a +4 bonus to the save if there is only low grass, not bushes and trees to use). Plus, even if you fail your save in low grass, the DM can rule that the NPCs legs are entangled, but not their upper bodies. Hence, he could rule that they could fire back with their missile weapons depending on terrain and how they are entangled.

3.5 added a little "invitation to rule 0" for DMs to change the spell effects depending on terrain. Entanglement does not prevent you from attacking, albeit at a -2, plus a -4 penalty to Dex. The goblins we encountered generally only had javelins.

If you make your Reflex save, Entangle merely gives 1/2 movement. No additional saves required. Granted, maybe only one NPC in three or four will make the save, but this IS a specialized spell.

Actually, unentangled creatures in the area have to save every time on the caster's turn.

If you fail your Reflex save, then yes, you are in trouble. But, this is why DMs should have spell casting opponents as well. A hiding Goblin Shaman casting Dispel Magic might turn the tide.

There was an adept in the group who managed to cast Sleep on some of the party. Problem was that only one worg escaped to attack us, and the awake party members were able to attack it and/or wake up the sleepers.

Or even a Goblin Archer readying an action to fire an arrow at any spell casters could nix this spell.

Yes, one important key to our success against the goblins was that the druid rolled a 20 on initiative.

Another way to think of this is: "Is Entangle too good compared to Web?" Web has half the radius, a higher save (because it's second level), a higher Escape Artist check, is largely limited to indoors, ten times the duration, and entangles even on a successful save. The terrain limitations appear to cancel out, and the longer duration for Web is a bit deceiving, since Entangle is generally plenty long enough for any combat. Does the balance of differences make Web suitably more powerful, as a second level spell ought to be?

--Axe

 

[Corlon]

The spell is fine.

If one of the DM's encounters is completley destroyed by the spell, then that's player enginuity. Instead of nerfing the spell, he should give his next encounters more ranged attacks, more casters, perhaps better reflex saves. Maybe even lure the druid into casting entagle on a place and then having a secondary ambush party attack the players, etc.

As said above, all it requires is creativity.

Web has a lot of utility other than just trapping people (building bridges and such). Also the ALWAYS entangling people is a huge bonus for the spell. Plus I think web can generally be used in more places unless your party is always in the wilderness. I believe web is sufficiently better than entangle to make entangle a level 1 spell.

 

[kenobi65]

Entangle, like the other druidic "mine field" spells (Spike Growth, Stone Spikes) can be very powerful, in the right place. The terrain doesn't always allow for casting of such a spell. That's why, IMO, they're fairly powerful at a fairly low level -- because they're not universally useful.

If your DM is very concerned about these spells "blowing up" a key encounter, he should place that encounter in a location where the spells would be ineffective.

And, as other posters have pointed out, what's good for the goose is good for the gander -- NPC druids could make the PCs' day very miserable...

 

[monboesen]

I feel as your DM. Entangle, and Web as well, are too good. I like the spells but think the escape DC's should be lower (possibly 15). As they stand medium opponents have little to no chance of escaping them, which is both powerful and very boring in game.

 

[Pickaxe]

I feel as your DM. Entangle, and Web as well, are too good. I like the spells but think the escape DC's should be lower (possibly 15). As they stand medium opponents have little to no chance of escaping them, which is both powerful and very boring in game.

I think that is his feeling as well.

In defense of the DM, we are playing a pre-made module which pretty much gives you the random wilderness encounters (including both that I described), and they are not necessarily that easy to tailor against specific strategies. Part of the problem, at least with the goblins, is that they were the perfect prey for this tactic. They don't have great reflex saves, they have only javelins for ranged weapons, and even the worgs are not much better. There was a spellcaster, but he was fairly low level and had no access to flight or dispel magic.

Nevertheless, I think there are some good ideas here for how Entangle can be overcome by creature tactics. My argument to the DM is that these happen to be encounters that play to the strengths of the party, and that's why it seems so lopsided. Even without nerfing the spell, there are plenty of ways to either get around Entangle or to prevent it from being used in the first place.

--Axe