D&D 5E Eldritch Knight/Bladesinger Multiclass War Magic-Extra attack class features

[LeGamer]

There is no Sage advice on this, but it has been discussed in various forums.
(and apologies if this has already been discussed here, but i could not find it with the search function)

The question is, do these two class features synergize (requires character level of 13)?
(standard 5E, not the upcoming oneDnD)

WarMagic: Beginning at 7th level, when you use your action to cast a cantrip, you can make one weapon attack as a
bonus action.
Extra Attack 6th-level Bladesinging feature: You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.

Approaching this from a rules lawyering pov doesn't help because, as usual, the wording is ambiguous and open to interpretation. Perhaps some of you will jump of this and insist it is obvious to read it one way, but i assure you, having gone thru the 'interpretative arguments', the wording is ambiguous. ie. i could see a future Sage Advice going either way.

Approaching this from a balance perspective by comparing 11th lvl pure Battlemaster fighter to the 13th level multiclass seems to put them relatively equal (on the one side you have three attacks modifiable with manuvers and your bonus action available, and the other you have 3 attacks when you expend a bonus action, and one of the attacks is modifiable with a cantrip like booming blade). the multiclass, as a spell casting class, can add a concentration buff, like shadowblade, which is very good, but it is long rest resource dependent (and dispel vulnerable), while the battlemaster is just short rest dependent. But overall this seems roughly balanced to me? am i wrong?

Anyone have any thoughts? Should the synergy be allowed from a balance perspective?

 

[GrimCo]

From the wording perspective, both do similar thing. You can attack and cast. Warmagic is less powerfull version since it burns 2 actions (one for casting and bonus for attack). Bladesinger on the other hand, can do it using one action. Personally, i would rule it as no, you can't use both features. You eather use action to cast spell (cantrip included) which triggers WarMagic or you use action Attack, which triggers Extra attack feature that allows you to swap one attack for cantrip.

 

[Seramus]

You may find some perspectives from the 2021 Sage Advice video, starting around 34:03.

 

[CreamCloud0]

The question is, do these two class features synergize (requires character level of 13)?
(standard 5E, not the upcoming oneDnD)

WarMagic: Beginning at 7th level, when you use your action to cast a cantrip, you can make one weapon attack as a
bonus action.
Extra Attack 6th-level Bladesinging feature: You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.

i would say no, because both feature stipulate for the effect to trigger you need to be performing the cantrip casting/attack action as an action, which if triggered by the effect of the other feature, you're not, warmagic the attack is made as a bonus action and bladesinger extra attack the cantrip is being substituted for an individual attack.

so by my judgement they wouldn't synergize together.

and also, hey, welcome to the forums!

 

[mellored]

Jeremy said it worked in this video.

You may find some perspectives from the 2021 Sage Advice video, starting around 34:03.

No sage advice for 2024, but IMO, it works too.

Bladesinger let's you replace one attack.
EK lets you replace one attack.

So you can replace 2 attacks with 2 cantrips.

 

[Will Brandiman]

Bladesinger allows you to cast one of your cantrips in place of an attack.

Eldritch Knight allows you to make one weapon attack as a bonus action when you use your action to cast a cantrip.

The question for me is therefore whether you are using your action to cast a cantrip. You are using your action to attack but, as part of that, casting a cantrip. But is that the same thing?

Ultimately, that is going to be DM fiat as there are entirely valid arguments either way.

 

[GrimCo]

So you can replace 2 attacks with 2 cantrips.

From what Jeremy said in this video, you don't get 2 cantrips. You get cantrip and 2 attacks. Bladesinger's multiatack triggers warmagic in a sense that you replaced one attack with cantrip which fullfils Warmagic stipulation that you get extra attack as a bonus action when you use action to cast cantrip.

I find it odd personaly, cause by that logic, multiatack isn't single action- attack (albeit multiple times), but if you use bladesingers multiattack it's 2 actions (Action-Attack, Action-cast spell).

In all honesty, it isn't that broken. You get 2 attacks and 1 cantrip, but use both action and bonus action.

 

[mellored]

From what Jeremy said in this video, you don't get 2 cantrips.

That video was for old 2014.

2 cantrips (no attack) is for the new 2024 rules.

But I agree it's not broken either way. You have slightly higher damage, but lower other stuff.

 

[LeGamer]

You may find some perspectives from the 2021 Sage Advice video, starting around 34:03.

Thanks everyone, appreciate the feedback.

but especially for the video. trying to dissect phrasing sometimes feels too much like interpretive art, so its easy to be left dissatisfied. i favour balance consideration arguments more, but ofcourse nothing really beats one of the designers talking about the features. cheers.

 

[Tessarael]

I agree with CreamCloud0's response: No, these don't stack.

War Magic requires that you are using your action to cast a cantrip - that's a Magic Action in D&D 2024 terms.
Whereas Bladesinger is replacing an extra attack of the Attack Action as a cantrip.

And from a game balance perspective my answer is also no, as you're looking to cast more cantrips in a turn. That's very dodgy to me as cantrip damage is already intended to scale (albeit more slowly) similarly to multiple attacks. Cantrip + bonus action single weapon attack is reasonably balanced I would think. Attacks + replacing one of these with a Cantrip + potentially bonus action two-weapon fighting attacks is starting to get overpowered. Multiple cantrips + attacks ... absolutely not!