D&D 5E Eidolon Sacred Statue Damage (Tome of Foes) - Is it Right?

[Stalker0]

So checking out the Tome of Foes book. The Eidolon is a CR 12 creature that can inhabit a sacred statue.

The statue gets two attacks....that does 43 damage each!!! Compare that to the CR 16 Iron Golem that only does 2 attacks at 20. This creature could actually take out a D8 hitdice level 12 creature in one round.


Now I've been saying for awhile that monsters aren't strong enough, so I'm all for it if this is the new world order. But since the damage is double that of a similar construct 4 CR higher, I'm just confirming this is intended damage.

 

[5ekyu]

So checking out the Tome of Foes book. The Eidolon is a CR 12 creature that can inhabit a sacred statue.

The statue gets two attacks....that does 43 damage each!!! Compare that to the CR 16 Iron Golem that only does 2 attacks at 20. This creature could actually take out a D8 hitdice level 12 creature in one round.


Now I've been saying for awhile that monsters aren't strong enough, so I'm all for it if this is the new world order. But since the damage is double that of a similar construct 4 CR higher, I'm just confirming this is intended damage.

Uhhh... CR is much more than just damage. This is part of a rather common problem of looking at a single part of two selected wholes.

Iron Golem has higher AC more HP by double, advantage against all magic, AoE breath weaponry 37, fire healing feature and cannot be turned.

You clearly looked up the Iron Golem, so you knew this, so all I can guess is this is a joke, right?

 

[Leatherhead]

To be fair, the Iron Golem has a Poison Breath attack that deals AoE damage.
When comparing the Stone Golem (cr 10) to the Eidolon, the Stone Golem has significantly better defenses and better maneuverability. However, yes, WotC has learned to "optimize" their monsters. I first noticed it when comparing the Gnoll to the Gnoll Hunter.

 

[Quickleaf]

So checking out the Tome of Foes book. The Eidolon is a CR 12 creature that can inhabit a sacred statue.

The statue gets two attacks....that does 43 damage each!!! Compare that to the CR 16 Iron Golem that only does 2 attacks at 20. This creature could actually take out a D8 hitdice level 12 creature in one round.

Now I've been saying for awhile that monsters aren't strong enough, so I'm all for it if this is the new world order. But since the damage is double that of a similar construct 4 CR higher, I'm just confirming this is intended damage.

I just ran an Eidolon actually. My usage of it was probably atypical – 5th level party plus an NPC party were attempting to get a relic out of a temple and triggered a "trap" which activated the Eidolon. So their objective was not to kill it, but just to get out alive.

Anyhow, at the time my eyes also went wide at that damage, so I double-checked the monster maths of the Eidolon's Sacred Statue vs. a Stone Golem (which the MM says is CR 10)...

Eidolon's Sacred Statue

Defensive CR 6
effective HP = 95 * 1.25 (multiplier for resistances for creature intended for CR 11-16) = 118.75 = 119
AC 19

Offensive CR 13
DPR = 2 * 43 = 86
Attack +8

Total CR = (6 + 13) / 2 = 9.5

Stone Golem

Defensive CR 20
effective HP = 178 * 2 (multiplier for immunities for creature intended for CR 5-10) = 356
effective AC = 17 + 2 (Magic Resistance) = 19

Offensive CR 8
DPR = 2 * 19.5 = 39
Attack +10

Total CR = (20 + 8) / 2 = 14
That actually looks a bit high to me, and I think it's because CR 10 is at the cusp between the CR 5-10 and CR 11-16 ranges. Perhaps a more accurate multiplier for immunities might be *1.75, which would make its Defensive CR 17, and could justify a total CR of 12. Higher than what the MM lists it as, but the same CR as the Eidolon, coincidentally.

Conclusions
Eidolons are primarily offensive and Stone Golems are primarily defensive, that much is clear. My party had previously encountered a Stone Golem, however, and had a feel for how hard it hit. Thus, having another stone statue creature of about the same size deal over twice as much as the Stone Golem with a single blow was a narrative dilemma for me. In my case, I made the Eidolon's Sacred Statues shaped as carnivorous dinosaurs like allosaurus, such that its "Slam" attack was actually a spiked stone maw clasping about a creature, lifting it off the ground, and grinding the creature to a pulp.

 

[Stalker0]

I just ran an Eidolon actually. My usage of it was probably atypical – 5th level party plus an NPC party were attempting to get a relic out of a temple and triggered a "trap" which activated the Eidolon. So their objective was not to kill it, but just to get out alive.

Anyhow, at the time my eyes also went wide at that damage, so I double-checked the monster maths of the Eidolon's Sacred Statue vs. a Stone Golem (which the MM says is CR 10)...

Eidolon's Sacred Statue

Defensive CR 6
effective HP = 95 * 1.25 (multiplier for resistances for creature intended for CR 11-16) = 118.75 = 119
AC 19

Offensive CR 13
DPR = 2 * 43 = 86
Attack +8

Total CR = (6 + 13) / 2 = 9.5

Stone Golem

Defensive CR 20
effective HP = 178 * 2 (multiplier for immunities for creature intended for CR 5-10) = 356
effective AC = 17 + 2 (Magic Resistance) = 19

Offensive CR 8
DPR = 2 * 19.5 = 39
Attack +10

Total CR = (20 + 8) / 2 = 14
That actually looks a bit high to me, and I think it's because CR 10 is at the cusp between the CR 5-10 and CR 11-16 ranges. Perhaps a more accurate multiplier for immunities might be *1.75, which would make its Defensive CR 17, and could justify a total CR of 12. Higher than what the MM lists it as, but the same CR as the Eidolon, coincidentally.

Conclusions
Eidolons are primarily offensive and Stone Golems are primarily defensive, that much is clear. My party had previously encountered a Stone Golem, however, and had a feel for how hard it hit. Thus, having another stone statue creature of about the same size deal over twice as much as the Stone Golem with a single blow was a narrative dilemma for me. In my case, I made the Eidolon's Sacred Statues shaped as carnivorous dinosaurs like allosaurus, such that its "Slam" attack was actually a spiked stone maw clasping about a creature, lifting it off the ground, and grinding the creature to a pulp.

I appreciate the notes. Yeah I think to me the Eidelon's offensive CR is a bit underrepresented because it has a very solid possibility of knocking out an equivalent level player in a single round....which of course reduces the party's offense against it. Compare that to a stone golem that will take a few rounds to do the same, so it has to endure more punishment.

But again I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing just seeing if this is more "normal" for the newer monsters. I've felt that MM1 monsters tend to be over CRed in my opinion, so I am all for some buffed up monsters.

 

[Quickleaf]

I appreciate the notes. Yeah I think to me the Eidelon's offensive CR is a bit underrepresented because it has a very solid possibility of knocking out an equivalent level player in a single round....which of course reduces the party's offense against it. Compare that to a stone golem that will take a few rounds to do the same, so it has to endure more punishment.

But again I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing just seeing if this is more "normal" for the newer monsters. I've felt that MM1 monsters tend to be over CRed in my opinion, so I am all for some buffed up monsters.

Yeah, an eidolon threatens an 11th-12th level party the way an ogre threatens to a 1st-2nd level party. Similarly, like with an ogre, if you're the kind of DM that balks at killing a PC in one blow, you'll want to avoid declaring the same target of both of the eidolon's slam attacks if that PC is low hp.

My point was that if you compare the monster's total CR (12 for an eidolon and actually closer to 12 for a stone golem) to its component offensive CR and defensive CR, then you realize this:

Stone golem (total CR 12, acc. to DMG maths): defensive +8 (i.e. 20), offensive -4 (i.e. 8)

Eidolon (total CR 12): defensive -6 (i.e. 6), offensive +1 (i.e. 13)

In other words, the eidolon is only hitting slightly beyond its CR, whereas the stone golem is heavily defended well beyond its CR. There's really nothing game breaking about the eidolon, IMO.