Druid feats and Wildshape

[Wanderlust]

I was just wondering if I were to go for the feat chain culminating in Whirlwind attack would the feats apply when I'm wildshaped?

Also, since this is my first Druid if you would be so kind as to tell me your experiences with Wildshape (i.e. which animal to change into and why you think it's good) I'd really appreciate it.

-Wanderlust

 

[FrankTrollman]

Are you talking 3.0 or 3.5?

It makes a really big difference here.

If you are talking 3.0, then yes. When you transform into an animal you can Whirlwind with each of your natural weapons - so long as you only attack enemies within 5 feet of yourself. Whirlwind eliminates your desire for reach, but if you are talking about being restricted to medium and smaller creatures that's not much of a concern.

If you are talking 3.5, then mostly no. While you can use Whirlwind to hit all of the creatures you can reach, you not only lose all of your natural attacks except one - you lose access to your bonus attacks (such as the improved grab and trip abilities possessed by bears and wolves respectively). Whirlwind eliminates your desire for creatures with multiple natural weapons and for creatures with bonus attack routines - which is collctively just about every combat form you would even consider transforming into.

In a 3rd edition game, Whirlwind is a very expensive but valuable addition to a Druid character. In a 3.5 game, Whirlwind is a very sketchy feat for anyone, and is completely useless for a Druid. You'd be better off with Cleave.

-Frank

 

[AGGEMAM]

Actually, FrankT, there is no difference between 3E and 3E5 here.

 

[FrankTrollman]

Yes there is.

Whirlwind Attack in 3e is a Full Attack Action that causes you to give up your iterative attacks (not your bonus attacks from Cleave, Circle Kick, Two Weapon Fighting, Natural Weapons, or Improved Grab), in order to attack every opponent within 5 feet of yourself.

Whirlwind Attack in 3.5 is a Full Round Action that causes you to give up all of your bonus attacks (including those from Cleave, Two Weapon Fighting, High BAB, Natural Weapons, and Improved Grab) in order to make one (and only one) attack against every opponent you can reach.

The two are nothing like similar, and in this case the difference makes all the difference.

Remember: In 3e, the Bag of Rats works. In 3.5, not only does the Bag of Rats not work, but Whirlwind Attack has been nerfed so hard that most people don't even consider it worth using.

-Frank

 

[AGGEMAM]

Benefit: When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within 5 feet.

This is the wording in 3.0E.

Remember the "When you use the full attack action" means you give up your iterative attacks. But the "regular attack" in "you can give up your regular attacks" means a (or more but that is discluded in the first sentence) attack with a non-off-hand weapon.

Any extra attacks you might get is not regular attacks. They just pointed that out in 3.5E but the rules are same for either version.

 

[FrankTrollman]

Right.

Key difference: When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.

That and the 3e wording "within 5 feet." and the 3r wording "within reach."

That, and the 3e FAQ answer that you could use Whirlwind Attack with two weapon fighting and the explicit 3.r wording that you can't.

It's a monstrously huge difference. The two feats are so dissimilar that they don't even deserve to have the same name. One combos with TWF and Cleave, the other combos with Spiked Chains (at low levels).

Parts of the wordings are deceptively the same - but the total effect of the feats are not.

-Frank

 

[Wanderlust]

Thank you for the info guys. Now I'm just wondering about ideas on which creatures to Wildshape into, and how they might best be used...

Thanks again,
Wanderlust

 

[FrankTrollman]

Octopus: You can use 8 daggers (3rd edition), or 8 small short swords (3r edition) with your tentacles. You'll need Multiweapon Fighting - but that's really OK. In 3rd edition you'll want to Power Attack, and in 3r you won't. -available at level 5-

Dire Horse is available at level 8 in 3r. 3 attacks, a land speed of 60 ft., scent, and a strength and Con of 22 is pretty special. You can probably carry the two slowest party members at that rate.

Laugh all you want, but in 3r the Dire Toad is deadly, and available at level 5.

In 3rd edition you can cast Enhance Wildshape and become a Beast at 8th level. I suggest the Girallon. That thing, backed up by Greater Magic Fang and your own BAB is totally brutal with its kung fu action rend.

In 3rd edition the legendary tiger is available at level 12. Gaaaah.

In 3r, you can become a Dire Wolf at level 6. Throw Improved Trip in the mix and you can attack 3 times for every single attack you normally get (attack, bonus trip, Improved Trip attack, Attack of Opportunity).

In 3r you can be a Dire Lion at level 8. Never overlook a creature with pounce.

-Frank

 

[jgsugden]

I very thoroughly suggest writing an email to custserv@wizards.com asking for an explanation of how druid wildshape works in 3.5 (if you are playing 3.5). I have seen a large number of explanations from experienced gamers. They do not disagree. If enough of us ask for clarification, they'll be forced to include it in a FAQ soon.

For the record, I've seen answers from custserv@wizards.com that indicate:

1.) that you get to use the natural weapons of an animal, but must use your iterative attack progression for the attacks (and take multiweapon penalties for using more than 1 weapon), and

2.) that you get to use the natural weapons of an animal and must use the animals natural attack progression instead of your iterative attacks.

These two contradict, but both answers appear to have been given by custserv@wizards.com since 3.5 came out.

 

[FrankTrollman]

[rant]

That's because both answers are stated in black and white within the 3.5 rules.

The entire Alter Self/ Polymorph/ Wildshape inheritance tree is such a contradictory mess that I can only assume that it was made that way on purpose to make the use of polymorph so confusing as to make people give up.

For example, all of this is based on Alter Self. Alter Self now contains bonus language that states that you gain "natural weapons" (which it didn't used to say at all). The rules of natural weapons state that if you have them you can use them (only) to perform natural weapon attacks: 1 attack per natural weapon. But they also added the text "A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks"

Excuse me?

They added two pieces of text that say totally opposite things.

And while we're on the subject, what about polymorphing into a Giant Snake? Do you get poison or not? Well, "poison" is listed in the example of abilities that you get, so I'd say "yes". But it also contains the wording "Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is seperated from the whole reverts to its true form." And yes, that is the wording from 3rd edition for why you don't get the poison abilities of the creatures you transform into.

So yeah. The exact rules in 3r are such a jumble that having read them closely I am unable to tell you what they meant.

For right now, I'm assuming that when you transform you use natural weapon progressions exactly as if you were one of those creatures. It says that in simple, easy to understand text, and I'm going with it. It also says exactly the opposite, but I'm ignoring that until the 2nd printing of the revised edition comes out and hopefully doesn't make such a complete hash of the transformation rules.

[/rant]

-Frank