Driving NARRATIVE in RPGs, not STORY

[innerdude]

I've been mulling over this idea in my head for some time now, and finally figured, "What the heck? Let's throw it out into the wild."

And the idea is this:

D&D is great at generating "stories" but frequently problematic at generating "narratives."

Obviously some explanation is needed about just what I mean when I say "story" versus "narrative."

As I'm defining it here, a "story" is nothing more than a sequence of chronological events, that when taken together, form a complete arc---a beginning, middle, and end. The players are put into situation X, perform actions Y, and the results of actions Y become a "story," i.e., "We did this, and here's what happened as a result." The "story" grows as each successive bits of action move forward in time.

A story might be something like, "I got in my car this morning, but it wouldn't start. I realized that I had left the lights on and it needed a jumpstart. So I did that, then drove to the bank, where I stood in line for a long time, before finally heading home to work in the yard."

A narrative, on the the other hand, incorporates the same action sequence as a story but also makes specific inferences and judgments about the value, "rightness" or "wrongness" of the things that happened.

For example, in our same story about going to the bank, a narrative might mention the fact that the reason the protagonist had to stand in line for so long was because the man in front of him or her was an older gentleman who exhibited a lack of formal education, and required lengthy explanations from the bank teller for each step of the transaction.

"And I wondered as I stood there--what would lead a man of his age to make his way through life lacking some of these fundamental life skills? How had the education system failed him? Was it right for me to feel upset with him for inconveniencing me and wasting my valuable time? Or should I have felt empathy for him, and recognized in him something of an object lesson, a reminder of why I valued my education so highly, and felt blessed, somehow, that I had been given something precious this man did not possess?"

When I'm talking about narrative, this is the sort of thing I mean--basic reflection, consideration of the deeper meaning or values being carried out through the actions as they happen.

In my experience RPGs are EXCELLENT vehicles for generating "story"--players are constantly "doing" stuff, then piecing together the resulting sequence of results. But I wonder if there are ways to make RPGs (and Dungeons and Dragons in particular) more capable of engaging players in creating narrative--or if RPGs as an entertainment genre are not fully suited to narrative-building as I've outlined it here.

Now for some players, GMs, and groups, this is not even a consideration. You're there to have fun, roll some dice, pretend to be a hero, and earn some reward. Having any sort of "narrative" considerations beyond the "story" of kicking butt and taking names isn't really part of the equation.

But I guess the question for me is, is D&D uniquely suited or unsuited for this kind of "narrative building"?

I recognize that GNS theory's definition of "narrativism" as a creative agenda is very similar to this. The goal for "narrativist" games is to push these kinds of "themes," or "moral dilemmas," to the forefront of gameplay. The goal isn't necessarily to "play a character," or even for the character's actions to move a "story" forward, but to actually drive gameplay towards events that bring forth these kinds of questions, and then let the players potentially find interesting answers to them through interacting with the world / milieu.

And maybe I just don't have enough experience with any truly "narrative" systems to go on. I've read through several iterations of the FATE engine (and own Legends of Anglerre), but have no way to compare how it actually works in play versus more "traditional" gamist / simulationist systems. I've never played any of the more "avant garde" Forge stuff (Dogs in the Vineyard, Sorceror, etc.) to compare them to D&D either.

Is building this kind of thing into D&D even on most group's radar, or is it kind of in the more "out there" realm? Do "narrative" experiences make gameplay more compelling, or resonate with players more, or is it mostly inconsequential to the other objectives of "fun"?

 

[CarlZog]

2 days, lots of views and no replies...
Alright, I'll take a stab at this.

I suspect that, for the most part, players and GMs who are interested in genuine narrative as you've described it are probably not playing D&D. The predetermined archetypal characters that are emphasized in D&D do seem to constrain PC paths in a way that would tend to deter players interested in developing constructive narrative. And like-minded GMs may be similarly inclined to find games with more open-ended opportunities.

But I don't think those inclinations mean that you can't generate narrative in D&D. In just about any setting or system, you can build a campaign in which the players have an opportunity to create interpretations of the pattern of linked events -- interpretations that generate a deeper set of meanings in the form of narrative art. Actually, I think one of the beauties of RPGs is the chance to create multiple narratives among different players in a single campaign. After all, every character may have their own perspective and understanding.

I think you might just have to work quite a bit harder to coax it out of the deeply ingrained tropes, archetypes and alignment of D&D.

For the record, I personally don't worry too much about this in advance. Because narrative is meaning generated by events, every player creates their own over the course of a campaign, and it is likely different for every character. Sure, I can choose imbue my adventures with certain recurring themes or narrative arc, but as we all know you can never count on players to take a hint.

So I think the better approach may be to focus on the characters. Work with players to create characters with which the players can really explore "what it all means" -- at least for that character. This means character background, goals motivations, obligations, fears, ambitions -- in short, personality. If you work closely with a player to do this, you'll see which elements the player is latching onto. You can exploit that interest to create opportunities for the player to grow the character. Pay attention to the ways in which your adventures genuinely involve the characters -- shaping their personal growth, challenging their beliefs, etc.

I realize that this can sound like a bunch of psycho-babble when you try to talk about it in general terms, but it's really not that deep or complicated. And it can be done in D&D.

For whatever it's worth,
my two cents.

 

[innerdude]

I suspect that, for the most part, players and GMs who are interested in genuine narrative as you've described it are probably not playing D&D. The predetermined archetypal characters that are emphasized in D&D do seem to constrain PC paths in a way that would tend to deter players interested in developing constructive narrative. And like-minded GMs may be similarly inclined to find games with more open-ended opportunities.

That's an interesting response. Again, having no experience with any of the more "narrative" focused games, I wonder if you (or someone else) has any examples of games, and the "narrative" elements that arose from them.

In a sense, the idea of a "class" in some ways is actually in many ways an "assumed" narrative, up to a point. I mean, an "archetypical rogue" and "archetypical paladin" are often assumed to have similar personality / background traits---which are sort of the formative substance of narrative.

But I don't think those inclinations mean that you can't generate narrative in D&D. In just about any setting or system, you can build a campaign in which the players have an opportunity to create interpretations of the pattern of linked events -- interpretations that generate a deeper set of meanings in the form of narrative art. Actually, I think one of the beauties of RPGs is the chance to create multiple narratives among different players in a single campaign. After all, every character may have their own perspective and understanding.

I think you might just have to work quite a bit harder to coax it out of the deeply ingrained tropes, archetypes and alignment of D&D.

For the record, I personally don't worry too much about this in advance. Because narrative is meaning generated by events, every player creates their own over the course of a campaign, and it is likely different for every character. Sure, I can choose imbue my adventures with certain recurring themes or narrative arc, but as we all know you can never count on players to take a hint.

So I think the better approach may be to focus on the characters. Work with players to create characters with which the players can really explore "what it all means" -- at least for that character. This means character background, goals motivations, obligations, fears, ambitions -- in short, personality. If you work closely with a player to do this, you'll see which elements the player is latching onto. You can exploit that interest to create opportunities for the player to grow the character. Pay attention to the ways in which your adventures genuinely involve the characters -- shaping their personal growth, challenging their beliefs, etc.

I realize that this can sound like a bunch of psycho-babble when you try to talk about it in general terms, but it's really not that deep or complicated. And it can be done in D&D.

For whatever it's worth,
my two cents.

No, it's not psycho-babble at all! I think when you talk about character motivations, goals, backgrounds, ambitions, etc., it speaks very much to my general desire for actor stance when I'm playing. If I'm interested in building narrative threads through our party's actions, it's often grounded in viewing the results of those actions through the character's personal "filters," so to speak. Shifting away from actor stance means I have less time "inside the character's head," which means I'm less likely to be building those narrative threads, which I find to be some of the most fun things about RPGs as an entertainment medium.

 

[Mishihari Lord]

My take on this is you can do "narrative" in D&D but there isn't any particular mechanical support for it. As an example, you could check out the string of story hours by Sepulchrave starting here: Lady Despina's Virtue This isn't something that happens by accident though; you need players that are willing to do it and a DM that's willing to put in the extra work. I've never been in a group that wanted to do this - it's all been more about lighthearted heroic adventure.

There definitely are games that create this focus mechanically, and I would guess it would be much easier to play narratively with them. I haven't played any of these, but I've heard enough about them to guess that Dogs in the Vineyard, Legend of the Five Rings, and and Pendragon would be good examples.

 

[am181d]

My take on this is you can do "narrative" in D&D but there isn't any particular mechanical support for it.

I'm not sure if there's a nuance I'm missing. I've played in plenty of role-playing heavy games over the years, where the emphasis on the PCs pursuing their individual goals. As a rule, we tend to address "issues" (as one would in real life) rather than "themes" (as one would in a novel), but I think as a practical matter in winds up being much the same.

 

[Wednesday Boy]

"And I wondered as I stood there--what would lead a man of his age to make his way through life lacking some of these fundamental life skills? How had the education system failed him? Was it right for me to feel upset with him for inconveniencing me and wasting my valuable time? Or should I have felt empathy for him, and recognized in him something of an object lesson, a reminder of why I valued my education so highly, and felt blessed, somehow, that I had been given something precious this man did not possess?"

When I'm talking about narrative, this is the sort of thing I mean--basic reflection, consideration of the deeper meaning or values being carried out through the actions as they happen.

I think the tricky part about emulating your example of narrative while playing a roleplaying game is that it's difficult to demonstrate basic reflection and consideration of deeper meaning or values outwardly. I think that works well in books because the author can write out the inner monologue of a character. But in roleplaying games I think you have to demonstrate the reflection that your character did through action. This is why I was disappointed when I played a character who was dark and brooding because without the ability to peer into my character's emotions I just seemed quiet at the table.

 

[Umbran]

Back at New Years, I was watching a bit of the traditional Twilight Zone marathon on Syfy. One of the episodes I saw was "The Shelter" - in which an alert is issued for an imminent nuclear attack, prompting neighbors to unite against the man whose bomb shelter has room enough only for his family.

The big thing at the end of the episode was Rod Serling specifically saying they were presenting the story without comment, passing no judgement. The narrative invited commentary and thought on some major moral questions, but took some effort to not engage in commentary. So, I'm not so sure that it is wise to divide into "gives events, but no commentary" and "gives events, specifically to put forth statement of meaning". There's also the space of "Gives events, with the purpose of allowing the audience to explore meaning".

I'd then note that the players are also audience members.

The difference, from the GM's point of view, is quite significant. The GM doesn't need to have a predetermined idea of what is right or wrong - he or she merely needs to help generate situations where the players may explore ideas of right and wrong. I don't need to answer moral questions, I merely need to pose them, and let the players deal with it.

 

[tunafish]

I've been mulling over this idea in my head for some time now, and finally figured, "What the heck? Let's throw it out into the wild."

And the idea is this:

D&D is great at generating "stories" but frequently problematic at generating "narratives."

Obviously some explanation is needed about just what I mean when I say "story" versus "narrative."

As I'm defining it here, a "story" is nothing more than a sequence of chronological events, that when taken together, form a complete arc---a beginning, middle, and end. The players are put into situation X, perform actions Y, and the results of actions Y become a "story," i.e., "We did this, and here's what happened as a result." The "story" grows as each successive bits of action move forward in time.

A story might be something like, "I got in my car this morning, but it wouldn't start. I realized that I had left the lights on and it needed a jumpstart. So I did that, then drove to the bank, where I stood in line for a long time, before finally heading home to work in the yard."

A narrative, on the the other hand, incorporates the same action sequence as a story but also makes specific inferences and judgments about the value, "rightness" or "wrongness" of the things that happened.

For example, in our same story about going to the bank, a narrative might mention the fact that the reason the protagonist had to stand in line for so long was because the man in front of him or her was an older gentleman who exhibited a lack of formal education, and required lengthy explanations from the bank teller for each step of the transaction.

"And I wondered as I stood there--what would lead a man of his age to make his way through life lacking some of these fundamental life skills? How had the education system failed him? Was it right for me to feel upset with him for inconveniencing me and wasting my valuable time? Or should I have felt empathy for him, and recognized in him something of an object lesson, a reminder of why I valued my education so highly, and felt blessed, somehow, that I had been given something precious this man did not possess?"

When I'm talking about narrative, this is the sort of thing I mean--basic reflection, consideration of the deeper meaning or values being carried out through the actions as they happen.

In my experience RPGs are EXCELLENT vehicles for generating "story"--players are constantly "doing" stuff, then piecing together the resulting sequence of results. But I wonder if there are ways to make RPGs (and Dungeons and Dragons in particular) more capable of engaging players in creating narrative--or if RPGs as an entertainment genre are not fully suited to narrative-building as I've outlined it here.

Now for some players, GMs, and groups, this is not even a consideration. You're there to have fun, roll some dice, pretend to be a hero, and earn some reward. Having any sort of "narrative" considerations beyond the "story" of kicking butt and taking names isn't really part of the equation.

But I guess the question for me is, is D&D uniquely suited or unsuited for this kind of "narrative building"?

I recognize that GNS theory's definition of "narrativism" as a creative agenda is very similar to this. The goal for "narrativist" games is to push these kinds of "themes," or "moral dilemmas," to the forefront of gameplay. The goal isn't necessarily to "play a character," or even for the character's actions to move a "story" forward, but to actually drive gameplay towards events that bring forth these kinds of questions, and then let the players potentially find interesting answers to them through interacting with the world / milieu.

And maybe I just don't have enough experience with any truly "narrative" systems to go on. I've read through several iterations of the FATE engine (and own Legends of Anglerre), but have no way to compare how it actually works in play versus more "traditional" gamist / simulationist systems. I've never played any of the more "avant garde" Forge stuff (Dogs in the Vineyard, Sorceror, etc.) to compare them to D&D either.

Is building this kind of thing into D&D even on most group's radar, or is it kind of in the more "out there" realm? Do "narrative" experiences make gameplay more compelling, or resonate with players more, or is it mostly inconsequential to the other objectives of "fun"?

you haven't completely read the 1e GameMaster's Guide. Gygax made it clear there in the GM Tips section that the game could be clearly COMPLETE from a RP aspect, depending on the DM. some people see his words as "adversarial" and "simulationist", but even as a teen, I saw the deeper aspect of what he wrote.

D&D is a game meant to be tactical, using the talents of the Fighter, Thief, Cleric & Magic-User RESPECTIVELY as each encounter required. one character wasn't meant to dominate any scene. it required teamwork and a sense of the greater GROUP dynamic. that by itself touches what you want. based on what your DM & group wanted, you can easily include Narrative and Gamist aspects that satisfy all players. it really boils down to your DM & what kind of adventure or campaign is being run.

to say, "D&D doesn't offer thus & so" is limited only by what your group is playing. at age 15, i ran games that included all those elements, because i had players that wanted to visit Narrative, Simulationist and Gamist elements. any DM/GM can drive Story over Players - thinking D&D is exclusive of this is wrong-headed. A GM or group that's Story-driven can foil any desire for a Player-centered game. at any time. even a GM-less game like Capes or Fiasco or Polaris can fall to Story if the players run it that way.

personally, i think the story IS the characters - not just the PCs, but the NPCs, as they shape and curve the story around the main characters vision. it's how the GM/DM has fun: interweaving his or her NPCs into the PCs actions to create a shared event that rolls across hours of interaction. Unpredictability & passion shape the face of good games. D&D offer this if you have the right group of participants.

Hope this helps.

 

[Herobizkit]

D&D, no, unless you're playing a strictly Solo campaign. Narrative is designed to enlighten a READER as to the goings on of what they cannot perceive in a story - but players aren't reading, they're acting, and delivering narrative is generally the DM's job.

Now, that said... games like the World of Darkness series, Firefly RPG... in fact, most skills-based RPGs are designed to accommodate this type of role-playing.

D&D *COULD* do it... but 30 years of "kill things and take their stuff" has burned itself into the heads of every D&D player. Even if players try to be narrative, most game will devolve into the same kill things/take stuff because that is the experience they have come to expect from D&D.

Best I was able to do was play the campaign like a dramatic/comedy/action-adventure like something you'd see on the WB (like Supernatural, Angel/Buffy, or Charmed).

 

[Inez Hull]

If you have characters with real personalities and back stories who are grounded in a campaign containing meaningful relationships and events and present them with difficult decisions which have consequences you provide the opportunity for narrative. Is this possible in D&D? Absolutely. Just don't expect it to happen much if your characters are the usual band of familyless sociopathic home invaders who have no motivation other than wealth and personal power - unless you want to explore the narrative of that of course!